Why Is Change at Work So Hard—Even When It’s Positive?

This episode touches on the theme of Strengthening Culture.

In this episode, we explore the impact that change has on our people and our organizations, even if it is implemented for positive reasons.

Our prescription for this episode is to be aware of the psychological impact of change and transition. It can be difficult for all staff, regardless of the cause, if it is not managed with strategic intent.

Past Episode Referenced:
S1 E18: How Can We Improve Organizational Change?

S3 E20: Trauma-Infused Workplaces, Surviving Unsupported Change, Fixing A Bad Hire - Answering Listener Questions

S4 E17: Is Comfort Making Us More Productive or More Complacent?

S4 E5: Why Am I So Exhausted After Work Every Day?

To talk more about managing change, reach out to us at info@roman3.ca or through our LinkedIn page at https://www.linkedin.com/company/roman3

Don't forget to sign up for our New Quarterly Newsletter that launched in the fall of 2024!

About Our Hosts!
James is an experienced business coach with a specialization in HR management and talent attraction and retention. 

Coby is a skilled educator and has an extensive background in building workforce and organizational capacity. 

For a little more on our ideas and concepts, check out our Knowledge Suite or our YouTube Channel, Solutions Explained by Roman 3.

Transcript

[ANNOUNCER]: 0:00

Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness,  not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.

[COBY]: 0:10

Did we lose a patient?

[JAMES]: 0:12

No, that's just my lunch.

[COBY]: 0:14

Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby, he's James. And let's get  started with a question. Why is change at work so hard and even when it's positive?

[JAMES]: 0:31

I think the biggest reason, even, you know, so called positive change is really  difficult, is that we tend to be so focused on the, that the thing that's changing or the process  of change that we tend to neglect the impact that this change is going to have on people.  McKinsey has long cited something like 70% of change programs fail to achieve their goals,  which is crazy. and research constantly shows that the biggest barriers to successful change  are usually people related. Right. They're things like lack of leadership support or  communication, engagement, trust is a huge one, manager alignment and employee adoption.  So in our conversation, I think, what I want to talk about is the different,  some different kinds of change, but really spend most of our time talking about the people and  the impact that different kinds of change have on people. Because change is neutral, people are not.

[COBY]: 1:43

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I think that, I think that we need to kind of really  just kind of put in some, some clarity around the fact that organizational change,  when it doesn't go well, it tends to be a human system problem, not just like a failed HR project  or initiative or. It's not always about leadership failure. Right. Because like we,  again, we have to look at things like the psychological responses of, of the people.  We have to look at things like the cultural norms that the changes are happening in,  but also things like operational hab. Because part of it is, is we need to know what the environment  that we're bringing the change into is like to know whether or not the change that we're trying  to make will become sustainable or will end up damaging the organization in the long term.

[JAMES]: 2:34

Yeah, it's, we've seen it so often,  going into organizations and it doesn't matter what really what type of change,  whether it's change that's been forced on them through crisis or plan to change that they are,  you know, as part of their actual business strategy where it breaks down, tends to be in,  buy in. Right. It's bringing people along with us. It's letting people know why we are making these  changes, what the impact is and most importantly, how it's going to actually improve their work,  their workload or their work systems. Right. a Lot of the resistance to change, like the  research that we've seen time and time again talking about things like the, you know, lack of  employee adoption tends to be born out of fear. Right? It's fear of change. It's fear of, well,  if this goes through, what is this going to mean for me? I'm comfortable and I know what I have. I  know my expectations currently. I know the current system that we're using or the current tools that  we're using. And that change without a, without taking the time to generate buy in tends to create  fear. And now many people may not articulate it that way in terms of being afraid of the change  because it's not that type of fear, but it's the fear of loss. Right? Losing something comfortable.

[COBY]: 4:04

Absolutely. And I mean, you know, the like again, I'm gonna want to, to no surprise,  dig into kind of the, the psychological impacts of change and kind of really.  I know it's like, well, let's do something different for this episode.

[JAMES]: 4:20

Yeah, let's have Coby talk about psychology.

[COBY]: 4:22

Nerd. But I mean there is pieces of it that we need to look at. Kind of  like the similarities between what people go through with change and the idea of kind  of grief and loss and and all the different kind of things too. Because I mean you're,  you're 100% right about the fact that, you know, the, the, the change needs to have the  buy in. But it's also about trying to make sure that people's psychological needs are being met  in order for them to be able to buy in. So those, all the different kinds of it too.

[JAMES]: 4:54

But the conditions, like there's conditions that need to be,  that need to exist in order for buying to happen. Right? I mean,  yeah. Unsurprisingly we're going to get back to the same question that we end up asking all  the time. What needs to exist first in order for this to be successful? And such a simple question  really is helpful in deconstructing virtually any problem we've come across in the workplace.

[COBY]: 5:23

Well, I mean we talked, I can't, I think it was a few episodes ago we talked about  the top of our hierarchy, the strive and the, and the successes that live in there. One of  the successes is change. Having a organization that has climbed the hierarchy, has resolved  job dissatisfaction, has psychological safety, people feel that they belong,  has created engagement and m. Motivation and enthusiasm in employees and is now striving  for optimal performance to look at change and is a resilient organization that can handle  the change that has the buy in that be able, that gives people the psychological needs to  be able to manage all these pieces. That's the kind of thing that we need to get to.  And the thing is that sometimes when change is strategic, that should be the plan built  along M. When the change is something that is kind of happening to you, knowing where  your deficits are in the hierarchy and kind of in the psychological impact of employees is going to  be helpful to help you navigate that. But it is important to just know where it is that you're,  that you are if this is going to something that you're going to be going through. And  honestly if you work in this modern world, you are going to be going through change at some point.

[JAMES]: 6:43

Well, I mean we all have been constantly in our professional lives and it seems to be  accelerating in a lot of ways like AI adoption. Not to get, get us too far off track, but that is  already causing a lot of changes to the way that we approach work, to the way that work is thought  of, to the way that we individually do our jobs. But like it's having significant ripple effects  and it's going to continue to cause significant disruptions. So if you want to position yourself,  your company, your organization in a way that is going to help you either pivot, adopt,  more quickly or change and respond to you know, new and changing conditions, understanding how to  kind of bring people along with you and manage not just the process of adding something new  or doing something different, but generating that buy in and establishing the expectations  and really working through the people side of change is how that will be. That will position  you very well for being able to weather the many storms that come at us as business owners.

[COBY]: 8:06

Yeah. So I think it's important for us to kind of break down the three different  buckets that you and I see most change fall into. So again, this is not, this is kind of where like  90% of all change usually is, is because of one of these three things. So let's just outline  those three things because it's important to recognize just like, just like the question asked,  why is it so difficult even when it's positive? So we need to talk about change that are positive,  that are negative. But because again it all has, there's a lot of similarities to the psychological  impact of it and kind of how it, how it rolled out operationally. So the three different types  of change, three buckets that we referred, we refer to them as is. The first one is growth.  And this is, happens when organizations are Trying to scale, they're trying to expand,  trying to capture new markets or new locations. That's usually the good kind of change, right?

[JAMES]: 8:58

Yeah. I mean from an organizational perspective that's  a good thing. You maybe you are entering a new market or you're adding a new location,  or even you're just adopting new software that's going to allow for your operations  to scale and grow. Right. Generally considered to be positive outcomes.

[COBY]: 9:16

Yeah, absolutely. Another kind of change that again we see on the regular is  what we call blending. And that's usually mergers, usually acquisitions. It's amalgamations. It's the  idea of taking two organizations and kind of, kind of like shuffling the cards together and having  them kind of become one. Blending cultures, blending workflows, blending customer bases,  all those kind of pieces like that. And that's often strategic, often intentional,  but is probably a bit more neutral, both good and bad. Kind of how it's viewed and seen, if you're  the one initiating the merger usually is positive. If you're the one being merged upon, usually.

[JAMES]: 9:58

Yeah. Like this is, this is the thing with you,  know, ascribing positive or negative to change. Like again,  I, I don't see change as inherently good or bad. It's. Change is, it just is.

[COBY]: 10:12

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 10:13

It's how we perceive that change that determines whether it's positive or negative.  If I'm a business owner and I'm acquiring a new business, and absorbing it into my operations,  that I'm going to look at this as a positive. Right? It's part of my acquisition, strategy. It's  how I plan on scaling and growing my business. but that exact same situation is going to be  viewed very, very differently from employees who have to, who are going through the process,  who are wondering what does this mean for my job? If we are. Whether you are being acquired  or acquiring another company, there's going to be duplications, right. Redundancies, very  often there's job losses. So this is where, like this is why so many times we fail to successfully  implement change. Because we don't think about other people's perceptions. We think from my  perception or for the organization, this is a good thing, therefore people should be happy about it.

[COBY]: 11:21

Yeah. Right. And then the third type of change is crisis. and  this is one that I think we are a little more familiar with than we'd like to be.

[JAMES]: 11:35

Oh, it's hitting a little close to home for me.

[COBY]: 11:38

But I mean crisis is often the category that  we refer to. Things like when there's Downsizing, when there's a disruption,  when there's instability, when there's, a lot of resignations due to scandals,  when there's major incidences like, oh, I don't know, fires and stuff like that.

[JAMES]: 11:55

Like being kicked out of one office and having the other one burned down. Yeah, right.

[COBY]: 11:59

Yeah. Not that, you know, anything about those,

[JAMES]: 12:01

but not that I. No, no, let's move on.

[COBY]: 12:04

But yeah, so. So again, like, you know, and again, crisis is almost always a  negative change. Even when, like, you know, when there's leadership transition due to,  you know, scandal, often the transition out is a positive, is a net gain. The,  the, you know, all the baggage that goes along with it tends to just make it awful,  and hard on people and everything else like that too. But I think that again, it's important for  us to kind of recognize that there are again, the. Those three buckets are usually where we  see most things fall into. And you listening, if you're experiencing change, it's likely  somewhere within those three buckets of, or, or kind of a crossover of the two, depending on.

[JAMES]: 12:45

They're general enough that we can toss, most scenarios into it.

[COBY]: 12:49

Yeah, but. But the thing is like, you know, like, again, to kind of describe the  differences between them. Growth kind of stretches your systems and stretches your, kind of the,  the work that you're doing and, and kind of adding more to it. Blending usually collides systems and  identities, and it's usually a bit of a mashup and crisis is a shock to the systems and usually kind  of majorly disrupts them. So again, there's, you know, these are the types of things that again,  we see a lot in the work that we do. And likely you listening, have experienced one,  if not all three of these, in your professional career. And you can probably agree with the  general statement that we're making that all three of them are stressful, all three of them require,  you know, have a major impact on you and your wellness and all those around you. And you know,  whether they're good or whether they're, you know, bad, they all have some type of effect  that can cause change. Fatigue and that can cause all kinds of like, you know,  even kind of negative behaviors of people going through all of this sort of stuff. Burnout,  exhaustion, those types of things are all different. They're all tough.

[JAMES]: 13:59

Well, and because there's so much uncertainty that comes with change,  even when we go through it, like, even assuming we do things properly, from our perspective.  Properly. Right. We've gone through the processes we are communicating early, we're generating buy  in, we are articulating what we're doing, why we're doing it, how it's going to, you know, how  we anticipate this, rolling out, how we anticipate it, you know, having a positive impact on  workflows and on staffing, all of those processes that we talk about, there's still uncertainty.

[COBY]: 14:36

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 14:36

Right. Because until the actual change happens, until we're  actually on the other side of it and we start working through all the kinks and bugs and  frustrations that come with trying anything new, there's a tremendous amount of uncertainty that  goes along with change. And uncertainty is exhausting. It's like, it's why,  like it's part of why people get stuck in their comfort zone. Right. Because it, it's comfortable,  it's easy. It's where I feel that I can sit and rest and do my work and just. I don't  have to worry as much. And when you lose that, the uncertainty or that loss is like. Well, I mean I,  I can speak from experience. I mean we were joking and laughing a little bit when we were talking  about crisis because we are currently supporting an organization that has been experiencing a  tremendous amount of it. and I will tell you it is exhausting, because of the change to routines and  it is stressful on everybody. like these, these things have serious psychological effects on our  people. And we need to recognize the effect that that change has. If we can label it,  then we can understand it. And if we can understand it then we can work to resolve it.

[COBY]: 16:01

Right, Absolutely. And and so, so again like m. The thing that we want to, want to get  into is like we will talk a little bit about kind of our, our change management evolved methodology  that we use when we're trying to initiate organizational change. we talked about it before.  We have, we've done at least one, if not a couple episodes. We've kind of dug into it deeply. So  I'll put those episodes references in the show notes. But high level, largely it's about four  things. It's about, we say it's changing minds, changing thinking, changing actions and changing  how you measure success. And the changing minds part is the idea of you need to generate, buy  in and, and get people on your side and get, and be providing them what they need psychologically  for the change before any change starts to happen. It's that, it's the, it's the pregame campaign  where you kind of like, you know, you're, you're you're, you're going out there and you're selling  it and you're making sure that people kind of are prepared for it before you do anything.  And then it's a matter of changing thinking, changing how you do the work, changing how you are  talking about the, the types of systems and things that you're doing, getting, adopting new language  but also being aware of the messy, uncomfortable transitional pieces that kind of come when you  are in the, in the change process. It kind of normalizing what, you know, normalizing the  uncomfortable and awkwardness and just, and just letting people be aware of that, changing that  thinking is the idea that comfort and what was, and what, what you used to have was fine. But,  but the new is going to be better. It's going to be better for you, it's me better for everybody.

[JAMES]: 17:41

And it also involves like this is the time period where you have to extend a  little bit more understanding or grace. Because like we said change can be stressful and things  aren't going to go right all the time and people are going to be experiencing higher  levels of stress or anxiety which is going to present itself in different ways. Maybe  people are a little bit more short tempered, quicker to react to things, on an emotional  basis. so it does require from a leadership perspective more understanding and grace.

[COBY]: 18:15

Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and that's all part of the changing thinking  is that changing what normal typical is, has, has to be, be part of that change too. And then,  and that's all kind of the, the ramp up to the actual. Almost like the tipping point where you  are now in the new way of doing things. You tip you, you cross that precipice and now you're into  changing actions. Things are different. You are doing things differently. You are using the new  systems. You are kind of like under the guise of the new leader. You are in kind of you're using  the new SOPs, whatever it is that that change has initiated and you're doing it and you're asking  for help and you're not, you know, and again and you're still in that awkward learning phase,  but you're developing some mastery of it and you're helping others and all those other kinds  of pieces like that too. And then the last one is changing how you measure success. We have to  accept that the old ways are gone. So we can't hold ourselves to the old standards, to the old,  kind of like goal posts and those kind of things too is that we have to completely know  what that new process and those New outcomes are going to be and then that be how we now  look at success. Success has to be different and look different and measured differently.

[JAMES]: 19:30

And this is kind of the bookends of like we, when, when talking about why change  fails. Like I spend more a lot of time identifying the buy in piece. But the changing measurements  of success is the other bookend to why change tends to fail so substantially. Because people  will default to the actions that they are being measured upon. Right? If you do not change the way  that you measure success after the change happens. If people, if, if people are still evaluated  based on the old system, then they are going to default to using the old system.

[COBY]: 20:14

Right?

[JAMES]: 20:15

Because that is what they are being evaluated on. Because that if they  don't then in their minds they are not being successful in their role. Right? We have to,  as we evolve and change our, whatever it is, you know, it doesn't matter. There has to be,  there are changes to how, what success looks like that have to come along with us. And if we don't  then we are just shooting ourselves in the foot because people are not going to do new processes,  new new actions if those actions are not what they are being rewarded for or measured upon.

[COBY]: 20:57

Right. Like one of the ways that we see this fail so spectacularly is when the like when  the outcomes, business metrics, cycle what is still quarterly, that the, the, your efficiency,  your productivity is still measured quarterly and you're going through change and people are not  adopting the new change because everything slows down when you go through a new process. If you're,  if you're in the middle of a merger that impacts so much of your mental ability,  so much of your workflow is disrupted and if you're still being held to kind of the  quarterly outcomes but you're you know, but you're, but again the whole point of this  is to create more of a strategic long term play. Then if you're being measured in the short term,  but you're, but the change is supposed to prioritize the long term. How will  you ever accept the long term new change if you're still being measured quarterly, right?

[JAMES]: 21:54

You're either not going to put the proper time, energy and effort into  ensuring that the change is successful because you're still looking at, you know,  how am I going to make it through this next evaluation period, right?

[COBY]: 22:06

Yeah, absolutely. So, so, so again like the things that most,  most change management processes, I mean there is a bunch of different change management  methodologies. I mean change management evolved is ours and the one that we always use and the one  we've had great success with. But it's because, like you said, it's because of the two bookends.  Because most change management processes start at the changing thinking phase where you start to,  adopt the new, the new language and new pieces and then end at the end of the changing actions.

[JAMES]: 22:34

It's, hey, we've got a new system that we're doing and here's the new  language, that you have to use, here's the new actions that have to go through,  here's the new software that we are implementing. have fun.

[COBY]: 22:47

Yeah. And, and we made the change and we're done. And that's usually how,  how it goes, which is why it's, it blows up and fails so spectacular. Whether again,  whether it's good change around growth, whether it's kind of that blended change  around an acquisition or a bad change around kind of like the idea of, adapting to a disruption.  And it's because they, it's because they miss the two bookends which are the,  which are the vital parts. Setting the stage beforehand, make sure everyone's resilient and  ready for it. And then changing how we measure success to reflect all the work that we've,  that we've gone through and those usually where the biggest failures happen.

[JAMES]: 23:22

Yeah. Maybe just to last point on this, because it may not like, let's take the crisis  example. Right. I mentioned that, you know, client we're supporting has gone through some, crisis.  And one of those is that one of their offices literally caught on fire. Success changed. How  we measure success for staff changed immediately. Right. It was no longer showing up at the office  because there was none. Right. It was, you know, once we had our temporary solution in place, it  was, we had to change what a successful day looked like. What does success look like in the week?  Because everything had been disrupted. We could not hold people to the old standard because it  would not be fair to hold them to the old standard because we don't have the old office. Right. So  it's the idea that as things change, whether it's good, bad, neutral, whether it's crisis growth,  whether it's opportunity, there will be things that need to change in how we evaluate success.

[COBY]: 24:29

Right. Well, and even on the other side, on the growth, a, client that we help  go through orientation restructuring to allow them to grow and expand. One of the ways that  their management teams kind of measured success, but how well that their supervisors and their  teams were doing was kind of how few kind of like, questions and like, and kind of like,  how, how. How much uncertainty that was, was navigated. So, like, you know, if they.

[JAMES]: 24:59

Questions they brought forward or, you know, because they thought, you know,  if they were asking fewer questions, then they were more comfortable and confident goals.

[COBY]: 25:07

Right? So almost like shorter meetings were assigned, things were going well, but then,  but then that had to be dropped. As soon as we started implementing new SOPs and implementing new  policies and trying to streamline processes, then it became more about how long the meetings were or  need to actually become a measurement of success because they were digging into the minutia and  they were. And they were talking through scenarios and they were. And those kind of things too. So  how much kind of help that they were seeking, how much mentoring they were seeking, those all  became new, new structures for the new stuff. And that, that had to change too. So, I mean,  it is something that, you know, it is something that is so often over. Miss or sorry, overlooked  and missed because we just, you know, don't put the thought into. We think, we think once that  once the new, Once the tipping point happens and the new change is implemented, we're done.

[JAMES]: 25:53

And that's because measurements of success are the formal measurements,  but they're also our informal expectations, right?

[COBY]: 26:00

Absolutely. All right. So I actually want, I think we need to get into some of the  psychological components of all this stuff, because like we say those are, those are our  processes of change. I think we'll refer to them as. We're talking about psychological pieces too.  But it is important to know how much kind of like, mental impact that this really does have, on us.  And I think one of the first things that I want to talk about, and you kind of alluded to this a  little bit earlier on, is one of the things that really hurts us when any kind of change, again,  good, bad or mixed, is the loss of predictability. Because, I mean, it really does increase our  anxiety. It moves into kind of the cognitive load that we are carrying because it's about,  you know, one of the. Something that really kind of has been validated with a lot of studies around  change is how impactful uncertainty is as being a psychological stressor. And, And then it's  something that really needs to be addressed. Just people are moving. Again, this speaks a little bit  to comfort zones, but it's more about, about that sense of predictability when it's predictable our  anxiety is low because we know what's coming when every day is going to be. Who knows  what's going to happen. That's when Our brains have to work harder just to get, just to get

[JAMES]: 27:12

through the day well and think about how many times we talk about and  rant about consistency. Yeah, right. Consistency in consistent expectations,  consistency in how managers approach things. Like we talk about like consistency is one of the,  the core factors of the workplace that influences everything else. And so like we've talked for  years about how important it is to have some consistency because it like it provides that  predictability, it gives, it allows people to know what they are walking into with confidence.  So when you lose that either through, you know, whatever type of change, it, it is stressful.

[COBY]: 27:59

Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is that, you know, the, the impact that it has kind of on,  on our like, you know, on our cognitive load, on just our the amount of processing it takes for  us as you get through the day, it also impacts how we kind of process what is happening to  us. So going back to what you said earlier about, about change is neutral, but people aren't. That,  that is such a good statement because the idea of, is if you think about something we talked  about in episode a little, we did earlier this season where we talked about why am  I so exhausted after work every day, we talked about the cognitive appraisal theory. And this  is the idea that what happens to us is somewhat neutral, but it's how we appraise the situation,  how we kind of judge it has a major impact on how much emotional load or how much emotional  or cognitive weight these things kind of carry with us. And that can be something that, you know,  that if we're not given again the buy in for why this stuff matters and we don't,  or we don't know what's coming or it has been, you know, or it's a matter of it gets  dumped in our lap and we need to figure it out while meeting all of our quarterly outcomes,  then that's, then that appraisal of that situation is going to be quite negative, quite stressful,  quite damaging. And that's something that will have a major impact. Whereas if we are prepared,  if we are bought in, if we do know the why and we, and we understand that our, that and going,  you know, the this messy transition period is normalized and we can ask for help, then the  appraisal of that, of that exact same situation under those conditions is much less cognitively  heavy, it's much less emotional, it creates much less anxiety. So that's something that we need  to also be aware of too. And why this stuff can work if we do it properly. From the beginning.

[JAMES]: 29:56

Yeah. And I mean that's why like communicating early communicate early  communicate often has its benefits. and that's one area that just really seems to speak to it,  going on. Like there's so many, there's so many elements that are influenced that are  impacted by change. And something that I've been thinking about is how like, and it's not even just  like change like, like job loss or am I thinking that I'm going to lose my job as a result of this  or you know, am I going to lo. Lose income? But there's. We, we tie a lot of our identity to work.

[COBY]: 30:42

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 30:42

like it creates a big part of who we are. I've never really liked it,  but it tends to be like when you think about the first one or like  two or three questions that you ask somebody when you're meeting them for the first time,  you know, ask their name maybe where they're from and what do you do. Right,  right. It's a way that we kind of like there's so much of our social identity wrapped up in  work that when that becomes threatened, it's almost like it's a personal attack.

[COBY]: 31:15

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 31:16

Because it's a personal, like it's an affront to who I am to have this thing change  with. Maybe it's without my permission or without my input into it. Or maybe  it isn't a merger and acquisition scenario where you're uns of whether or not you're  going to have a job at the end of it. Right. That's a significant amount of stress and  identity loss. But like it can take, I think it can take form in smaller components as well.

[COBY]: 31:45

Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Because a lot of that the, again even, even the appraisal of, of the  merger and acquisition where you know, there's two of us that do the same job. I'm from company A,  different company B. Which one is going to get it? You know, then that can start to create that  almost like the, that, that, that appraisal. This is going to be, this is a bad situation for me.  And they could start to grieve their identity loss before anything even happens. Because they're  like, I've done this job for so long, this is all that I know. And then they start to kind of again,  they start doing that appraisal of that threat is something that can happen, you know, again,  even in small ways. But it's, it is an idea of. You're right about the social belonging piece is  so ingrained into Our work even, even with the kind of like with a more common remote work,  we still have, we still have our kind of our social, our social tribes and so much  of that is tied to our work. And when there's a disruption, again especially when it's around  like the blending of merger and acquisition or an amalgamation or it's a crisis where there's  like again disruption or layoffs, those are direct threats to how we see ourselves,  our social norms. And we can start to pre grieve that stuff even when it's all still theoretical.

[JAMES]: 33:06

And it can still, it can be even, even in the so called positive aspects. Right. Like  in the growth scenarios. Whether it's a growth through new markets. What is that going to mean  for my job? Am I going to have the same job? Am I going to be dumped with new responsibilities?  How is that going to affect me? Yeah, maybe it's the adult. Like I mean I talked about  it briefly earlier but I mean one thing that a lot of people are experiencing right now, the,  the threat to their identity and belonging is around the adoption of AI. What is that  going to as, as our companies continually try to drive more and more efficiency and productivity,  are they doing that in service of people or in, as a replacement theory for people?

[COBY]: 33:51

People.

[JAMES]: 33:52

Right. technological improvements to help people become more efficient are  phenomenal technological improvements that are trying to just flat out replace people.  Yes. From a business perspective there are some very strong value propositions there.  From a social and from an identity perspective, from an employee perspective, from so many other  perspectives there are significant challenges and threats that come with that type of adoption.

[COBY]: 34:23

Absolutely. No, that's a really good point too. so the, so the next one,  the next kind of threat or the psychological impact that I want to talk about is just the  idea around the emotional exhaustion and burnout that can come from prolonged stress. And this is  something that is actually more abundant in the, in the growth types of. Types of change because  usually growth changes don't. Are not episodic. They're not project based or not. They're not,  they're not single instance usually it's more of a business strategy philosophy.  You're always going to be looking to expand the new things. It's almost like okay,  you've mastered this market and trying to move on to the next one. So, so it's, so it's very

[JAMES]: 35:09

so we've gained a foothold in a market, now it's time to go hard.

[COBY]: 35:13

Right?

[JAMES]: 35:13

it is a core, it's a core operational strategy that that change is going to be constant.

[COBY]: 35:20

Yeah, absolutely. And if, and if you are not,  if you have not built your organization around that,  like we talked about with the hierarchy, if that is not how you've been structured,  then you're just. As soon as people think that there's a, there's a, finish, line in place,  you move the goalpost. Because. Right, because, I mean, because that's just how this works.

[JAMES]: 35:41

Whereas we have seen companies do this where they are less forthright about where the  actual goal post is. So they make small, they make, they present shorter stretches so that  to motivate people. And then once they hit it, they keep moving it and moving it and moving  it rather than just saying, here's where we are going and it's going to take us a while  to get there. It's a, oh, no, we're just doing this piece right now. And then they. And that.  I have never seen that work well, I have never seen somebody respond, an employee,  anybody respond to that and go, you know what, thank you for lying to me. Thank you for telling  me that it was going to be quick and easy and we'd get through this in six months. And we got  into the six month part and we hit all of the metrics and now you're telling me that, oh no,  it's actually going to be eight months. Well, what's funny is that 12 months, like, it's just.

[COBY]: 36:39

You're right. A lot of good businesses though are like, we are in, we are about growth.  We are expansion. They, they sell the why very early on. And, and so again, the good ones do that  and the bad ones don't. And they do what you just said. But where I actually think this lives almost  per, you, know, pervasively is in government like federal government, provincial government,  state government. It's when the like, you know, we're gonna, oh, with this, with this budget cut,  we're gonna have to do more with less and we're gonna move people in different positions. But  don't worry, this is going to be temporary. And then all this shift of the political.

[JAMES]: 37:18

Oh, don't worry. All of these layoffs are going to happen through, natural attrition.

[COBY]: 37:22

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[JAMES]: 37:23

That's always the line at budget announcement day.

[COBY]: 37:26

Absolutely. And then, yeah, and then, yeah, we're have all. You're going to be taking  over this new office and those new pieces are working with, with these teams. Don't worry,  this is temporary. And then, and then, and then something Just kind of gets added on and then  there's a shift in the political wins or then there's a change of government and there's new  people brought in and then departments all shift around and, and that is just.

[JAMES]: 37:48

Why do governments just feel the need to change like every  new government changing then sometimes it's just the name of the division if  they're lucky. Sometimes they just decide to reorganize everything and  it's just like four years. You get four years of consistency if you're lucky.

[COBY]: 38:06

Yeah. But that's. Yes. So the emotional exhaustion and burnout and change fatigue really  does live with these organizations and we see it a lot and we see a lot of government employee  burnout and a lot of government complacency. often as a reaction to the constant change,  the lack of preparation, the emotional exhaustion as just almost like their own  personal coping mechanism to deal with. The like you said, the lying to that this  is going to be a short lived piece. This is not going to be our everyday. But it really is. so,  so again it's something that is really difficult to do and we, and we often see  again often in the growth stuff we also see it kind of in certain sectors more than others.

[JAMES]: 38:49

Yeah. I think just One of the,  one of my final thoughts on this part is how I think many times business owners see the  resistance to change as a behavioral piece as a stubbornness or an unwillingness. To change.

[COBY]: 39:12

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 39:13

And what I've seen and what research has shown is that it tends. It's an emotional  response, not a behavioral response. Right. Typically the, the, the what you are seeing,  the. This for lack of a better term, what you may be seeing as stubbornness,  as a behavioral piece, the, the cause of that is not necessarily. Yes, it's a choice. Ish. It  tends to be more of the way in which we. The cognitive and emotional load hits us. Right.

[COBY]: 39:49

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 39:50

So like from a leadership perspective,  I think it's important to recognize that these frustrating behaviors that you are seeing in  your staff because of the change. One, it's not about you. so don't take it personally.

[COBY]: 40:08

Right.

[JAMES]: 40:09

The other piece is you're not going to logic your way out of an emotional response.  So if these are largely emotional responses or emotional responses to the, the,  the. The loss of control or the, the added stress trying to ex. Just explain your way through it.  I've never seen an emotional. I've never seen a logical argument change an emotional reaction.

[COBY]: 40:40

No.

[JAMES]: 40:41

Ah, it tends to do the opposite. Yeah. So recognizing that and giving some  leeway for people to experience what they are experiencing with. I mean, there has to,  obviously, within professional bounds, but there, there needs to be some, especially  as we are going through more, more and more change constantly in the added stress and the,  the loss of identity and the loss of control. All of the things that we've talked about.  A little patience, understanding and grace can go a long way.

[COBY]: 41:19

Yeah, I think you're really onto something with talking about kind of the emotional and  cognitive impact of a loss of control. Because that really is a big part of where a lot of this  comes from is that because so one of the ideas of. So one of the theories around control,  what's called a locus of control, where there's an external locus of control and internal locus  of control, people usually are a mix of the two. And an external locus of control is. Stuff happens  to me. I am almost like, I'm a, I'm really just a receptacle for fate or you know what I mean? Like,  there's things beyond just me that impacts us, and I'm just kind of, I just kind of go  through the motions and then stuff happens to me. Whereas internal locus of control is the opposite.  It's like nothing outside, you know, or I'm the driver of my own destiny. you know, is, you know,  I'm the only one that can push things forward. You know, it's. It's all about my willing, my,  My work and my, My ability to grind is how I get there. And everything else like that too.  No one's really ever one or the other. I mean, like, enough stuff happens to us. We have to.  That. We have to like, blend that, blend the two. But an internal locust. Control is associated with  people that are more resilient, that are able to kind of handle pieces a little bit easier.  They look at. Okay, what can I learn from this? You know, what can I do to kind of like,  you know, better the situation next time where those. Where the external pieces feel. We feel  stuck. We feel that we are completely, at the whim of higher powers or whatever  it is. And when stuff happens to you and you have not bought into it, you and the company  has not provided you the kind of psychological supports that you need and the justification,  the reasoning, the communication, everything feels external, that the control is all external and it  is just happening to you. And that's when the stubbornness kind of kicks in because it's a  reaction to a loss of control. And it is that we have an emotional and a Cognitive reaction  to the situations that trump our behavior. And this is one of the things too, why when we  jump too closely into the normal change processes where it's, you know, we change how you think and  then change how you act. That's a boat behavior. But the idea of, of, of changing minds first and  the two measurements of success is, helps address the emotional and cognitive concerns. So that way  the behavioral pieces become come a lot easier. And. Yeah, so the other thing I kind of, again,  we're kind of running short on time, so I don't want to. I was really trying to keep myself from  going off on a major tangent there because locus of control stuff really is really interesting.  M. But one thing I do want to see with all of these things. So we talked about loss,  of predictability, anxiety, cognitive load. We talked about identity, loss and social belonging  and grief and loss and change, fatigue and loss of control and emotional responses. Like I said,  one thing that is important to also really make very abundantly clear is that these things don't  just live at work. That there's something called a psychological spillover. That is when this stuff  that we're going through in our everyday spills over into our personal, our home life, our health.

[JAMES]: 44:44

I think we can all relate to that.

[COBY]: 44:48

Absolutely. And then what happens is that when we spill over, we, we feel more anxiety,  we feel a lack of identity, we grief and loss, we feel fatigued and we bring it into our home life,  into our, into our health and often it infects it. And then,  and then the stress that we feel in our home life and our health spills over into work and then,  and, and you're just kind of like compounding the issues, right?

[JAMES]: 45:14

Yeah, it's a negative spiral that we can end up getting ourselves into. and it's  really damaging and it is, it is exhausting to live in that constant state of change,  constant state of anxiety, constant state of stress. And I think all of us can think  of very clear instances in our own personal and professional lives where that's been the case.

[COBY]: 45:40

Yeah. And really again, like we said, these ideas live, live in both what we consider  to be positive change as well as that mix, change as well as the crisis and negative change. Again,  all of these things happen regardless of the kind of change. If the change is not well managed,  if it is not something that we've done with strategic content, if we have not given people  the psychological supports and the buy in and the justification and the why and the communication in  order to make all of these things more manageable. And if you haven't built the resilience in our  people, in our systems, in our organization, all of this stuff, whether it's good change or bad  change, has just. This has almost the same impact on us and it depletes us almost the same way.

[JAMES]: 46:36

Yeah. I think for me, like, I think the main, like the takeaway that  I would like people to walk away from this conversation with, with is that change really  only becomes successful operationally when it can be absorbed psychologically.

[COBY]: 46:55

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 46:57

If you don't have that, you're. You very likely setting yourself up for failure.

[COBY]: 47:03

100% and, these kinds of transitions, these kinds of shifts, these kinds of. Again,  whether they're strategic changes or whether they're changes that are  episodic that happened to us based on an, incident or disruption or a crisis,  any kind of change really does test our resilience as people. But also the structures  that we work in and the culture that we have crafted, whether that culture was crafted with  intent and strategy or whether it was just cobbled together from everyday decisions.

[JAMES]: 47:41

Well, and this is why, like, I, I don't want to get us off on another tangent just  as we're trying to wrap up, but I'm gonna do it anyways. Yeah. but this is why as an. We focus so  much on operations. Like, so much, the work that we do, this, the work that we support, clients,  lives in operations. But yet we talk and we, we focus so much on people and culture. Because you  cannot succeed. I won't say you cannot succeed because there's always exceptions that prove the  rule. But it is much more difficult to succeed if you don't have a strong foundation and resilient  culture, and solid, supportive people who are going to go through these changes with you.

[COBY]: 48:31

Well, I mean, I think what you're really kind of saying is that a lot of these,  A lot of the changes that are happening, we're forcing people through them in the way that,  you know, like, you know, when. You know, when we are doing them,  when we aren't doing them successfully, we can still. We still get through the other end. Like,  stuff is still different and we get through the change, but that should not be the point.

[JAMES]: 48:52

Right. Yeah. Just getting through the change isn't actually the goal.

[COBY]: 48:56

Right, Right. The whole point is to get through the change without breaking  your people and destroying your culture, because you're still going to need those  people and that culture on the other side of the change. Very cool. I think  this was a good conversation I'm hoping that you listening, found some, again,  some helpful insight into the conversation. We didn't give a, this is how you fix it situation,  because it's not necessarily, you know, that easy of a thing to say. Just.

[JAMES]: 49:23

Just fix it, irs. That's how you fix it.

[COBY]: 49:25

Well, I mean, this is the reality of the work that we do is trying to say  this stuff is complex and you need to have a plan and you need to make sure that everything  you're doing has intention. And if you can't do that internally, then you need to get help  on that externally. And that's really, really the answer. but, yeah, so I, I think, again,  I just want to kind of, kind of re-summarize the point that, again, change is so hard,  even when it is positive. And, and I really like your point at the beginning where you  said change is neutral, but people are not. And again, that's a really good way to kind of, kind  of look at that. Change is complex and messy and difficult. Whether it's positive change happening  through growth, whether it's kind of a blended change, like a merger, or whether it's crisis,  like some kind of major incident or scandal or disruption, that all this stuff has a major  psychological impact on our people. And if we are not. If we are not able to make the change again,  almost like achievable psychologically for people, and then we cannot get through the  change with our people and our culture still intact. And that really should be the point  that it's about. You know, once the change is over, you still need to. Everything still needs  to work. So keeping the people that make it work, that should always be our focal point, always be  our priority. All right, good. That does it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access  the video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit Roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us.

[ANNOUNCER]: 50:57

For more information on topics like these, don't forget to Visit  us at Roman3.ca. Side effects of this podcast may include improved retention,  high productivity, increased market share, employees breaking out in spontaneous dance,  dry mouth, aversion to the sound of James voice, desire to find a better podcast…