BONUS: How Do New Leaders Learn to Trust Themselves? - PART 2

This episode touches on the theme of Practical Psychology and Developing Leaders.

In this episode, we explore the operational and leadership side of self-trust.

Our prescription for this episode is to find a practice or system that can help you navigate the unfamiliar waters that come with leadership. We recommend our Integrity Leadership framework, but it is important to find a method that works for you.

This is PART 2 of this topic, so look for PART 1, which launched last week, where we dug into the psychology around self-trust.

Past Episode Referenced:
S1 E18: How Can We Improve Organizational Change?

S3 E20: Trauma-Infused Workplaces, Surviving Unsupported Change, Fixing A Bad Hire - Answering Listener Questions

S1 E26: How Do You Effectively Lead And Manage Your Former Coworkers?

S4 E17: Is Comfort Making Us More Productive or More Complacent?

S4 E5: Why Am I So Exhausted After Work Every Day?

To talk more about management training, reach out to us at info@roman3.ca or through our LinkedIn page at https://www.linkedin.com/company/roman3

Don't forget to sign up for our New Quarterly Newsletter that launched in the fall of 2024!

About Our Hosts!
James is an experienced business coach with a specialization in HR management and talent attraction and retention. 

Coby is a skilled educator and has an extensive background in building workforce and organizational capacity. 

For a little more on our ideas and concepts, check out our Knowledge Suite or our YouTube Channel, Solutions Explained by Roman 3.

Transcript

[ANNOUNCER]: 0:00

Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness,  not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.

[COBY]: 0:10

Did we lose a patient?

[JAMES]: 0:12

No, that's just my lunch.

[COBY]: 0:14

Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby,  he's James. And let's get started with the question from last week.

[JAMES]: 0:24

Question Part 2.

[COBY]: 0:26

How do new leaders learn to trust themselves?

[JAMES]: 0:30

Yeah. So last week we talked a lot about,  self trust. Well, for us in the last five minutes we talked about, ah, a lot of self  trust, and really how, why it's important, and kind of the, the effects that it has on  leadership. our conversation really revolved around, I think we spent a lot of time really  hammering home how terrible. Fake it till you make it. we dug, we dug a lot into the, the,  the psychology around it and kind of some of the why it's important, how it presents from an  individual standpoint. And some we started to get into, how you can start to build that self trust.  but we didn't have an opportunity to really dive into how does self training trust play  out from an operational standpoint, which is where I think we want to pick up the conversation today.

[COBY]: 1:28

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, no, I, I think that, that. Yeah. So again, we really kind of  went into how you can build self trust kind of in yourself from a psychological perspective  and that kind of internal development piece. But it's really important for us to not just  talk about how do you go on this journey to build it in yourself, but also how can you start acting  with a sense of showing self trust and kind of creating your own confidence and efficacy  around your self trust in the workplace. And I think that, that, because again, that's a very  important thing to know what it looks like and how can we actually develop the things to make  this a bit easier. Because again, self trust, as we talked about last episode, is kind of that  foundational. It's a first skill you really need to have in order to be a strong, confident leader.

[JAMES]: 2:14

It's the prerequisite for confidence. Yeah. If you do not trust yourself,  you're not going to be confident in the decisions that you've made.  And so kind of shifting away from the individual a little bit. I'm sure it will. We can't. When  you're talking about leadership and leaders, you can't really separate that from the individual.  But I do want to look a little bit more around the operational side and I want to start with  just talking about leadership in general so that we've got. And so that we're Starting on the right  path and understanding that leadership really is the responsibility to move the organization  forward while supporting and bringing along the people who are responsible for that movement.

[COBY]: 3:01

Yeah, no, you're 100% right. It's, it's about. Yeah. And this is kind of the tough kind  of like duality of leadership that actually makes it very difficult a lot of situations  is that you're responsible for the people and you're responsible for the organization.  And sometimes it feels like those two things are in, are in conflict. And as a new leader  you can feel like there's a lot of tension with that, with that dual responsibility.

[JAMES]: 3:26

They are often in conflict. They're often in like they are,  they are often competing priorities. And I mean an easy example is often, that often gets thrown  around would be around compensation. Right. there are competing priorities. Employees,  want to get the most resources for the least amount of effort. Organizations  want to get the most effort for the least amount of resources. That is a direct,

[COBY]: 3:53

conflict.

[JAMES]: 3:55

Conflict between those two priorities. But your,  your responsibility as a leader is to move the organization forward. But you cannot do  that on your own. You cannot do that if you don't have the people moving in the  same direction with you. So it's about balancing those, competing priorities.

[COBY]: 4:20

Absolutely. Because I mean some of them are like, you're right,  compensation is a massive one. But also the idea of like the needs of the people and the  organizational needs. Right. Yeah. And I mean one of the things that we often see when we're  kind of in leadership roles ourselves is kind of the balance between the, between  fairness and consistency. Because I mean we go what we, we talk about in great length about,  about the importance of consistency as part of our seven by three rule and everything else  like that too. But, but everything can't be the same. You can't have, you know,  you can't have. Equality can't be the law of the land when it comes to consistency too. You want,  you need to address for fairness, you need to address for equality equitable needs and  all the things like that too. So knowing that that balance exists is important.

[JAMES]: 5:06

Just like, I mean we've talked about that how many times. The idea that  we default to equality because it's easy. Giving everybody the exact same regardless  of their needs is an easy choice. But it's not the same as being fair and it's not the same  as equity. It's not the same as giving people what they need giving to succeed  or to removing the barriers that people experience to allow them to be successful.

[COBY]: 5:35

Yeah. And we know when we talk a lot about kind of the need to balance the short term comfort  that employees and leaders have to kind of try to like, you know, have to endure that with long  term outcomes, like sometimes it's a matter of like belt tightening is an example of trying  to put long term outcomes over short term comfort. Right. But sometimes it's a matter of knowing when  is it that, you know, we're, you know, we're sacrificing our short term, what we're used  to for the long term success. I mean one of the things that we talk about with self sabotage is,  is being too focused on short term comfort and not wanting to like try something new or not  wanting to break out of, out of kind of everyday norms to kind of like strengthen something that  will benefit more long term. Like so these are the things that can make these, these,  this, I don't know, this dual responsibility very difficult and very stressful for new managers.

[JAMES]: 6:30

Yeah. It, it's a constant challenge to  balance that short term and long term need. But there's something that you  said that I want to capitalize on, in terms of who's bearing the weight of the sacrifice.

[COBY]: 6:47

Right.

[JAMES]: 6:47

Sometimes like the belt tightening conversation, far too often in my less than  humble opinion, the full weight of the sacrifice lands on the individuals, on the people,  rather than the organization. And we see this often, the belt tightening language often being  used around like when, when organizations hit difficult, times, when organized, when we are  in recessionary periods, organizations will downsize, they will cut positions, they will,  in an effort to preserve oftentimes the bottom line and shareholder fiduciary responsibilities.  The challenge is that the, the sacrifices are not being born equally or equitably.

[COBY]: 7:46

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 7:47

And it creates a whole bunch of other challenges. And I don't want to go too far on  this one because I, I am taking us off on a tangent which I am known for doing do way too  often and you often get irritated with me for which very much I'm totally fine with  irritating you. That's not a problem. but I do think that it is an important,  just something to recognize that when we are balancing the needs of the organization and the  needs of the individuals that we have to remember that we cannot lead if people are not following.

[COBY]: 8:23

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 8:24

And if the sacrifices that are required for the organization to move forward  are only felt by one group or one segment of the population and not the organization or others,  it creates a whole bunch of additional problems and challenges that are going  to plague you operationally and as a leader moving forward.

[COBY]: 8:54

You're right. And I do think that kind of going back to kind of like this idea of these  competing priorities. I think that one of the things that I want to reference this later on,  is going to be the idea that, sometimes identifying the competing priorities is  how we can actually make that a lot more, like, a lot more effective. So, for example,  speed versus accuracy is something that I know that we've run into trying to  balance that too. We've been trying to implement new sops and new policies and  new procedures into places and they often don't have them. So they need something.

[JAMES]: 9:34

Yeah.

[COBY]: 9:35

And it's really easy because let's just put them in fast and not worry about  how accurate or tight or kind of thought, well thought through they are. It's really easy to  fall into that. Like, no, you know, what do you want to do? We want to prioritize accuracy over  speed or when we're dealing with kind of like employee challenges and we're dealing with like,  you know, like employee that have tried their best but have, you know, have made mistakes or  have really underperformed about. We want to be empathetic and supportive of our people,  but we also need to hold them accountable. So sometimes it's a matter of whether it's  internally acknowledging the competing priorities and deciding which priority  you feel you need to work with. You need to, you need to, you're actually going to lean to again,  not ignore the other one. Right. It's not about if it's speed and accuracy. It's not accuracy at,  at the cost of any speed at all. It's, it's right, it's knowing which one.

[JAMES]: 10:24

And that's what, that's the point that I wanted to pick up on because there's a,  there is a danger in leaning only on one or the other.

[COBY]: 10:33

Right.

[JAMES]: 10:34

You can't let perfect become the enemy of good. Right. Sometimes you have to  move forward with imperfect information or within. With an imperfect strategy or plan that. I mean,  sometimes you just have to validate the assumptions that you're making by trying it.

[COBY]: 10:53

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 10:53

And we see people get locked down in this analysis. Paralysis, and kind of tying this back  to the, the conversation of, you know, how do we really deal with this, self efficacy or the,  the self trust angle? This is a big piece where a lack of self trust can really present significant  operational challenges. Because if you have to, if you feel like, if you can't trust yourself to  make decisions, to make decisions with Imperfect information. I don't, I can't think of any time  in my professional life where I've been able to sit back and wait for every scrap of information  to come in. Yeah, you have to be willing to make decisions and own that things are not going to  work perfectly. And this lack of self trust can really be shooting yourself in the foot  and damaging the operations of the organization if you, if you rely too much on. Well, I can't,  I can't make a mistake. Right. I have to wait for all of the information to come in first.

[COBY]: 12:14

Yeah, no, because when it comes to competing priorities, I think it's really  important for people to realize it's not all or nothing. It's not accuracy over speed, accuracy 1,  speed 0. It's more of accuracy 1, speed 2. Right. It's about which order you can have both,  but you can only have. But, but you have to have them in order. So it's about putting them  in order but not sacrificing one for the other. It's not all or nothing. It's this one first,  then this one a close second. And that's how you have to be able to do it. But, but you're right,  self trust can be where lack of self trust can actually make leaders spiral into self doubt and  over reliance on other approval. Only wanting to make popular decisions and all those cases like  that if they don't have the ability to kind of navigate the complexities of things like competing  priorities. Yeah, but I want to move on to what you said about decision making because I feel  like that's probably where a lot of this lives in the everyday. Because again, a lot of leadership  and a lot of management skills are really heavily based on being able to kind of like,  you know, make effective decisions and kind of act decisively and kind of quickly when it comes  to things. So I think it's really important for us to realize that this is probably a really good  example of where the rubber hits, hits the road when it comes operationally to, to self trust.

[JAMES]: 13:35

Yeah, the decision making thing, it's a core, it's why we are in leadership positions.  Right. Decisions have to be made and somebody needs to take ownership of them. Where the,  the, the lack of self trust comes from is if leaders tend to struggle if they've never had  to make those decisions, with incomplete information before. It, it's scary. It's,  it is not a comfortable scenario to say I have to make a decision, but I don't know if this is  the right decision because I don't have all of the information that we are in leadership  positions because somebody has to make a decision and somebody needs to wear the  to own the outcome of those decisions. And not everything is going to work out perfectly for you.  And that's, it's a fear based scenario. of. Well, and it kind of. We, we talked about this in the,  in last week's episode. about how if leaders, if the organizational culture that has been developed  or if the cultures that you have worked in in the past have presented this idea that leaders have to  be infallible, that leaders cannot make a mistake, then you are going to be paralyzed by indecision.  Without perfect information, you are never going to have perfect information at all times. You're  rarely going to have perfect information at any time. but I mean we have to make decisions because  if we don't move on some of these things, there are operational priorities that we have to adhere,  to. Right. Again, going back to that definition of leadership, it's our responsibility to move  the organization forward. You cannot move the organization, Organization forward if you are not,  if you are paralyzed by indecision. But you're. This is, this is kind of the duality of IT  organizations that present this false, expectation that leaders are infallible, that they always have  to have all of the answers all of the time. That they can't say, you know what, I don't know, I'll  get back to you. Right. That they can't, if they can't show vulnerability, those are significant  operational roadblocks because we have to make decisions in real time with imperfect information  to move the organization forward. But we need a focus, we need a framework that we can rely on  or we need a lens through which we can filter our decision making process. And that's why as much as  like I've railed against the whole mission vision values, statements that organizations prepare  largely because they tend to feel very inauthentic and just you know, flashy words that get posted on  a wall. But there is value in those types of, if well constructed, there is value in those types  of statements as a focusing point. Right. As a, if we know what we are working towards as, then  the decisions that I'm making need to advance a particular us towards a particular outcome.

[COBY]: 17:04

Yeah, no, you're, you're right because the, the, the structure that kind m of having  like the organizational almost like priorities allows you kind of know, okay, so if, if I need  to figure out what these competing priorities are, which one best moves forward the organizational  Priorities allows for a bit more confidence in decision making. But I also think a better,  a good framework for making decisions. Back to what we've talked about in previous episodes  about our Target leadership program because that's the whole idea of building a framework  around some core decision making situations that allow you to know what to do in those situations.

[JAMES]: 17:45

So yeah, and I just want to jump ah, on that because one of the things that  we talked about previously was how people often fall into the trap of trying to replicate other  people's leadership styles. Which is why a framework is a different tool that you  can use. It's not about looking at hey, what is James, how does James approach  leadership? And let's just copy what he does because it, that that's not going to work.

[COBY]: 18:17

Yeah, but also like, you know, the idea of like servant leadership or those kind  of things like that are very much a style where a framework is not a style. It's, it's a, it's a,  a tool to help you figure out what to do and then what that looks like will be unique to you.

[JAMES]: 18:31

What do you need to consider as you are making decisions? Yes, it's a way of owning it  for yourself. It's a way of enhancing your own leadership style while making sure that  you are acting in a consistent and transparent manner and that it's a way of filtering your  decisions so that you have that confidence in your ability and you can build that self trust.  The framework that we use, I obviously I'm a little biased, but I have found it incredibly  helpful as we go through and navigate uncertainty. Because if I know that whatever decision I need  to have the moral authority, the, the moral clarity, the to do what is right, not just what  is easy. Because it's very tempting to look at. Well, how can I, how can I offload this  decision as quickly as possible? How can I what is the easiest way to either pacify the people,  who are upset with me or to make a decision that's going to get us to the outcome? Easy is  rarely right. And that's a challenge that we often face as leaders. It's a challenge that we face in  our personal lives as well. But being keeping in mind as we go through the, the process of decision  making of am I doing what is easy or is this actually the, the right decision in this moment?  And kind of these self reflective questions can be incredibly powerful. one of the aspects that  I tend to rely on from a leadership framework a lot is the idea of trustworthy influence is  how do I wield authority? How do, what is the perception of how I wield authority? Do I use,  my position in a way that builds and enhances trust or do I use my authority like a bludgeon,  to just beat people into submission? Along the way, maybe it would help for us to actually go  through and explain the dimensions of integrity leadership and talk a bit about each one.

[COBY]: 21:07

Yeah. And so, and we, we did an episode, about how do you effectively lead and manage your  former co workers and we, we dug into leadership there. But I'll give you a, a bit of an overview.  So the five domains of integrity leadership are. Ah, the first one is reliable respect.  This is about providing fair, consistent and dependable level of respect to all people,  regardless of their position or status. Reliable respect is about allowing others to know that your  thoughts, efforts and actions are always coming from a place of authenticity and empathy. The  second one is moral courage. This is being brave enough to do the right thing even when it's not  popular. It's often appealing to sacrifice doing what's right in favor of doing what's easy.

[JAMES]: 21:51

Yeah, the popular angle. I'm going to interrupt you for a second because the  popular angle is the, the trap that I see many leaders fall into. Right. They're,  they're looking at using decisions to not ruffle feathers or what's  the decision that is going to have the least amount of people angry with me.

[COBY]: 22:13

Right.

[JAMES]: 22:14

Rather than what is actually the decision that's going to move us  towards our goal. What is the right decision in this manner?

[COBY]: 22:21

Right. Because one of the cornerstones of moral courage is  that is that it's important to have the courage to be unpopular and make  hard decisions and face challenges head on. That you need to have that level of courage.

[JAMES]: 22:32

Courage to be unpopular. I'm going back to high school.

[COBY]: 22:35

So. The third one is honest acknowledgment. This is about having  the confidence to acknowledge the efforts and contributions as well as the perspectives and  opinions of others. Being honest and properly recognizing others when they  have assisted you and sharing the credit is essential for leading with integrity.

[JAMES]: 22:53

Yeah, yeah, I just. That's a huge way of building relationships. You know,  we, I talked earlier about like business is 90 relationships. If you want to build effective  relationships, acknowledging when other people have contributed to your success,  giving them credit for the work that they've done,  acknowledging that is a huge way of building an authentic, and respectful relationship.

[COBY]: 23:26

Well, another way is being a part of it too. Is about being honest and acknowledging  the values. Sorry, the value in the opinions and perspectives that you may not agree with. Giving  credibility or giving credit to things, even if you disagree, that are actually factual and  accurate, that you just don't. You just are just not in line with your current thinking.  But also it's about acknowledging your own shortcomings and your own mistakes. Right.

[JAMES]: 23:51

Showing vulnerability we've talked about several times already.

[COBY]: 23:55

Yeah. So the fourth one is what you mentioned earlier, which is trustworthy influence.  This is about, treating the responsibility and authority that you've been provided in a way  that allows others to trust you and for you to trust others. It's about creating a sense of duty  to the obligation of the position that you're in and the power that you have been provided. Right.

[JAMES]: 24:17

And this, I mean, this is a big part of servant leadership as well. Right. The idea that  leadership is a service to others. Right. That it's not. Leadership is not a way for me to,  puff up my own chest and build my ego. my ego is very healthy. Anyways, thank you. It's really that  we are entrusted with responsibilities as leaders. And if you view leadership as a duty, as a service  to others, as that level of, care, it makes a big difference in how you frame your decisions.

[COBY]: 25:07

Yeah. because, I mean, if you, if you respect and have reverence for  the accountability and responsibility that, that your authority has provided you, that is,  that is the type of leadership that we all want. Not the kind of leader they  say that puffed out their chest. It's a power grab. It's an ego boost. No one wants to work  for that kind of leader. And everyone's pretty clear on the differences between the two. Now,  the fifth one going back to the leadership list is empowering others. This is about  valuing those who you are responsible for and providing them what they need to be successful.  Because largely it's the idea that their success is the indication of your success.

[JAMES]: 25:50

Yeah. And empowering others. Just, to tie in some part of the conversation that we had,  earlier or for those listening right now, last week, we talked about how you don't have to have  all the answers all the time. and that it's okay to rely on others and to ask for others input and  to seek other opinions and, you know, directions. This can be part of empowering others as well.  Empowering them. It also generates buy in to the decision making. If people feel like they've had  an ability to speak into a decision, even if they don't ultimately get their particular  way for lack of a better term. But empowering others is a really. It's not just about giving  people a pat on the back. You can use it to enhance your own leadership stature as well.

[COBY]: 26:48

Yeah, well, it's the idea of are you a leader that makes good  employees or are you a leader that makes other leaders? Yeah, right.

[JAMES]: 26:57

Yeah, yeah.

[COBY]: 26:58

Because I mean like a lot of the systems and frameworks that we implement into  organizations that ah, when we try to operate is part of us trying to operationalize these  strategies. A lot of the tactics that we use by building in like accountability frameworks,  by building in more autonomy makes delegation much easier or makes m. All these things like that is  part of that. Empowering leaders. But one thing I want to mention. So again, if you want more about  the Integrity Leadership program and encourage you to check out the episode about how to kind  of lead and manage former co workers, I think it's from a couple seasons ago. I'll put the number in  the show notes. But what's really interesting about the framework, like you said, versus the,  the like methodology of like servant leadership or other. Or other kinds is that you and I have  actually very different leadership styles. You have a very much kind of like casual, jovial,  like, you know, like again, again you're. You can switch on and off from the serious to kind of  playful. But like you're playful until you don't. Until you can't be is kind of how your method. And  whereas I'm a lot more serious. I have a lot. I'm a lot. I'm a lot more. I would say I'm a lot more  gentler but a lot less kind of like jovial than you. And we approach things very differently,  but we both use the core essence of integrity leadership to achieve it. And that's the benefit  of not mimicking. Right. We, we don't try to mimic each other's pieces. The framework  doesn't require you to mimic. You can still be the person that you are in the work that you do,  but you've got a system, a framework, a process to help you think through hard decisions, difficult,  difficult priorities, all these. Or competing priorities, all these different things. It  gives you a tool to kind of break down and make actionable decisions and pro. And. And again  clear strategic efforts while still being true to yourself and not trying to just copy someone else.

[JAMES]: 29:06

Yeah, I mean you and I are very similar in many ways. We have very similar values,  we have very similar approaches to things, but we are also very diff. We have very different  personalities and our approach to leadership, the style of leadership, like you said, is very  different. Yeah, I, mean, it's. It is a fine line to walk for me, with the jovial, playful,  then switching. Like, there's. There's boundaries that have to be set and there's allowances that  have to be made when. Because sometimes it's. It's easier for me to. To walk that line than  it is to. For other people, like staff, to walk that line as they kind of respond to my,  my approach. But it's not about right or wrong. This is an approach that  works for me because I am naturally more of a clown, more of a joker.

[COBY]: 30:09

It's. Yes, it's. It's. It's who you are and you. And again. But it's also very disarming.  It's all. Again, it works really, really well for many, many, many reasons. Whereas I'm more  serious, I'm more formal. again. But there's a. And there's a. There's a coldness to the way  that I work. But I'm also. I'm also more. I'm also very supportive and also very gentle in  the way. In the way that I work. And again, it's just. Again, that's what. That's kind of who I am.

[JAMES]: 30:37

Different approaches. But as you said that we both use the same framework for making  sure that as we are making decisions that impact the organization and just as importantly impact  people's lives and livelihoods, that we are acting in a way with integrity,  that we can stand behind the decisions that we make even with imperfect information,  because we know that we are operating from a perspective of what is the morally courageous  thing to do in this situation. Am I treating the influence that I have with the reverence  and respect that. That it, deserves? Right. All of these things play a very key foundational role  in how we approach things. It. I mean, tying it back to what we've been talking about. This  is how. This is one of the core ways that I have built trust in my own abilities by  having something that I can. When I enter into a. Enter into the unknown, which is gonna.

[COBY]: 31:47

Ha.

[JAMES]: 31:47

Happens all the time. I know that if I'm faced with a difficult decision or if I'm  faced with a decision that needs a response in a very short period of time, but I don't have  all the information that at least I can make a decision and trust that I have been acting with  integrity because I use a framework for filtering and understanding how that decision is going to  impact the organization, how it's going to impact others, and how it's going to impact myself.

[COBY]: 32:20

Well, I mean, think about it from a very practical standpoint. You and I, excuse me,  you and I are often in situations where people are stressed and burned out and people will often  come. Will come at. At us. And so, like, I know people have kind of said like, geez, like, you  handle that really well. How'd you know what to do? And I was like, I always just treat everybody  with reliable respect. No matter how they come at me, I always give the same response, regardless  of their energy. Their energy has no impact on my energy. And that is a very simple. I never know  how to worry about what to do in the situation, because I always do that one thing. Right.

[JAMES]: 32:55

Let's be clear, that's also not an easy thing to do.

[COBY]: 32:58

It takes practice.

[JAMES]: 32:59

It takes a lot of practice. It is. That angle, I will admit, is something that  I still struggle with from time to time, because I tend to be a bit more defensive,  depending. There are certain things that will set me off. But keeping that in mind, taking a breath  before I respond and trying to force myself to think through the reliable respect angle, helps  to make sure that I am not only treating the other person with respect, but also there something that  I, learned years ago that was repeated, like, the issue is not the issue. Yeah, is something that I,  I remember being told, early on in my, leadership career. And that what p. Oftentimes the issue  that. Or the, the. The situation that has set somebody off, that's the straw. It's the straw  that broke the camel's back. And there is a whole lot of other things that are going on,  behind the scenes, in their personal lives, in their professional lives, that contribute  it. Contribute to it. So understanding that even though the anger may be directed at you right now,  it's likely that that is if you don't respond and match their anger with anger,  nine times out of 10, that person's going to come back later and say, you know what? I'm sorry, that  wasn't directed at you. Other stuff is happening, right? Like people. Sometimes people need to vent.  And if you are able to show that reliable respect, you also give people that permission to, to rely  on you, and to know that you're not necessarily going to, just respond with an emotional, retort.

[COBY]: 35:05

Yeah, well, and I mean, like, for me, I also find it very powerful using the honest  acknowledgment because again I've been in lots of situations where I've been in like very political  heavy meetings where people are going to each other's throats and, and I'm like okay. And  I've often, because often I say to myself okay, this is new or this is fun. How am I going to  handle this Is kind of my monologue. And it always goes back to those five domains and mostly okay.  Honest acknowledgement. Acknowledge the stuff that you're hearing, whether you agree with it or not,  that's valid. Acknowledge where the limits of your of your understanding are. But then kind of,  but then be and then reflect. Does this actually change? You know, are the, are what they saying?  Is it changing my. Changing my viewpoint because I need to be listening, not just hearing them. And  then, and then my response is usually a lot more again is usually again very respectful. But it's  also the idea of like what they said, these things are accurate but unfortunately that those are,  they're beside the point. And, and it allows me to kind of work through a very  complex situations by acknowledging the things that I do know, the things that I don't know,  things that I agree with, the things I disagree with and then it allows me to  think critically about my own perspective and challenge it a little bit. And which makes my,  my position a lot more robust. So again these are some of the tactics that can help you in  very difficult situation be able to navigate them. But again the way that you do that doesn't, isn't,  isn't based on you having one style of leadership. It's about you still being yourself within it.

[JAMES]: 36:42

Yeah. And that's probably the greatest, the best advice that we can give you for how do  you build self trust as a new leader or as an experienced leader combating fake,  it till you make it or imposter syndrome is to understand that authenticity is going to  resonate with people. And so don't necessarily try to mimic or completely copy what somebody  else is doing or necessarily like if you're reading leadership books is not a bad thing.  But you have to take the pieces that work for you and make it, and make it true to who you are.  So our I obviously we are going to recommend that you use these five domains of integrity leadership  because we have seen it work for us, we have seen it work for our clients. We have seen it work for  in many, many different situations. It allows for the individual, individual nature of leadership,  the authenticity that comes from being yourself but also gives you some firm foundation to stand  on when you are faced with these questions of I don't know what to do right now.

[COBY]: 38:12

Okay. I think that's actually a great starting point for us to move  into some practical advice for kind of how again,  you listening? How leaders can build real, a real sense of self trust.

[JAMES]: 38:22

Yeah. Because we do need to wrap this up. We can't turn it into a three part series.

[COBY]: 38:26

That's a fair point. so I think the first thing is kind of going back  to a little bit of something that you said in kind of in this conversation,  but also in the last conversation that we had that would have went last week was start with again,  principles, not perfection. Right. So the idea of, you know, it's like the idea of we want to  make sure that your leadership values are kind of clear and that you're, you've got a bit of a  guide and a bit of a compass, but you're also not requiring to make everything be perfect.  You're not looking for the perfect response in every situation. You're looking for the one that  is the most grounded or the one that is the most kind of realistic or like I often say,  what's the least worst option. But you know, kind of what that is coming from,  a place that again looks at the priorities, looks at kind of again, if it's not a matter  of speed or accuracy, one or the other, it's maybe accuracy over speed, but just barely  overspeed. So knowing how your principles and kind of your position is going to help you in  realizing that you're not going to be perfect, but you can at least be, I guess, tactical.

[JAMES]: 39:32

Yeah. And that's, that's a big piece for like you, you need to have a focus for  your decision making because you have to have a defense for why you've made that decision. Even  if things like, things. We all know that things are not going to work out perfectly every time.  But if you know that you have acted in, you don't have to necessarily use our integrity leadership  framework. Find something that works for you. Find a focus that you can use to make sure that  you are making decisions with consistency. I think the, the next piece though is I,  I talked a bit about deconstruction. I don't know if it was in this episode or in the,  in last week's episode. deconstruction is a really like when you're presented with big,  problems. How do we break those down into smaller steps? Because there will be some things that you  can, make. The idea is let's make decisions quickly on the smaller things. Right. Some of  the big stuff is going to require more thought, effort, input from other people. But not even  a big decision can often be broken down into its component parts. So being able to figure  out what are those small decisions, what can I do now that's going to build some momentum. It will  help to build your own confidence that things are moving forward, that you're not just stuck  spinning your wheels and that it can build that confidence in your ability to make decisions.

[COBY]: 41:11

Yeah, you're right because sometimes when we are, yeah. When we're feeling a little  bit again like in that imposter syndrome or kind of we're in the fake it till you make it place,  we can be hesitant to make even small decisions. And that, and that is that,  that is just quicksand that you fall into. But if you can just again have enough clarity to just  kind of pull the trigger on, on things that are either low risk or, or kind of like obvious ones,  that again gives you a little bit of extra self kind of self trust that you know what  make decision making isn't that scary that you can actually move forward with it.

[JAMES]: 41:47

Yeah.

[COBY]: 41:48

actually one thing I want to say going back to principles of non perfection  that you have to think about is that even though you said you don't have to use our  integrated leadership, one of the ones in integrity leadership that helps me a lot,  it's within moral courage is I often figure out, I say to myself, which of these options am I more  comfortable defending with a microphone in front of me in the court of public opinion? Right.  Those types of principles over perfection can be a helpful tool to figure out again,  which of these difficult priorities do I have to push forward? Which one am I  more comfortable defending in public can be one of those little tricks too. Yeah.

[JAMES]: 42:28

And on that is the idea of transparency as well.

[COBY]: 42:32

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 42:33

Right. That that is closely tied. If you have a framework, if you have a focus,  if you have a lens through which you're consistently able to make decisions,  being able to share your reasoning, people, you can't expect that people are going to  necessarily agree with you all of the time. But if you share, if people can respect a  rationale even if they don't necessarily attach to the outcome of that rationale,  people want to know that our leaders are making decisions with some sort of purpose behind it. We may not agree with all of the outcomes of that. But knowing that this  is something, that there's a structured, thoughtful process that went into this,  not just a knee jerk reaction can really build a lot of credibility.

[COBY]: 43:32

agreed. And then the other one is to ask for context, not necessarily for permission.  So this is the idea that, you know, like one of the things that when decisions are coming to you  or you're needing to kind of like push decision, push the action of decisions up, making sure that  you've got clarity around the things that are happening around you. Whether that's, you know,  when people are coming to you for a decision, you don't necessarily need to make the decision if you  don't feel like you have enough clarity on the why, if you can't defend it, you don't. There's  a situation, you may not, you don't have to make the decision if you're not prepared for it,  but knowing what you need to know so you can make that decision. Right. So sort of those  things where there's no harm in you seeking more information to make sure that you have,  you know, at least the ability to defend the situation rather than making sure, rather  than being forced to, to kind of be rushed into something. If you're being rushed into a decision,  sometimes that's enough of a sign of maybe you need to, you know,  like maybe you don't need to make the decision or maybe it's not the right decision or those  kinds of things like that too. So just realizing when to ask for context and how important clarity  can be when you're trying to again figure out what potentially the least worst option is.

[JAMES]: 44:53

Yeah, the context piece is really crucial. Like we've talked about  before how you know, it's okay to not have all the answers right away to say,  you know what, that's a really good question, I'll get back to you. Or I need a little bit more  information. Like sometimes you are going to have to make a decision in the moment,  but most of the time even the pieces that are important decisions aren't necessarily  having to be done immediately in the moment. So understanding when it is appropriate to say I need  a bit more context or I need to investigate this further before I can give you an answer  is fine. It's a healthy way of setting some boundaries and also managing some expectations.

[COBY]: 45:47

Yeah, agreed. Okay. I think that between these two long conversations there's  hopefully some thing that can, that you listening can really connect with and attach to whether,  whether you're trying to improve your self trust again kind of internally from  a psychological perspective or how self trust can be practiced and utilized in, you know,  kind of like within the context of your workplace, like real application of it. yeah, this was,  and this was kind of a new thing for you and I to try the you know, not cutting a bunch of stuff,  which is what we've been having to do lately is we've been cutting a lot of our conversation  to keep it down under 55 minutes, which has been a surprising challenge for us. But yeah,  but if you're you listening, if you like this idea of us kind of going over  with intention and then cutting it up in two episodes, you think we should do more often,

[JAMES]: 46:43

longer form more diving in more depth? I mean, I'm happy to talk as long  as anybody's willing to listen and oftentimes even longer than people are willing to listen.

[COBY]: 46:54

Absolutely. But yeah, so, so again, let us know if this is something  that you think we should do more often doing these, doing these two parters. it gives us,  gives more con. More content going on a regular basis. But yeah, but I think this  has been good. I hope that, like I say, I hope that you listening have some real practical,  tangible, actionable items that you can take away to help improve your self trust.

[JAMES]: 47:16

All right, wrap it up. We're not doing a third episode.

[COBY]: 47:18

All right, that's it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access  to video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit Roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us.

[ANNOUNCER]: 47:29

For more information on topics like these, don't forget to  Visit us at Ah, Roman3.ca. Side effects of this podcast may include improved retention,  high productivity, increased market share, employees breaking out in spontaneous dance,  dry mouth, aversion to the sound of James voice, desire to find a better podcast…