How Do New Leaders Learn to Trust Themselves? - PART 1

This episode touches on the theme of Practical Psychology and Developing Leaders.

In this episode, we explore the psychology behind building self-trust. We combat myths and struggles like "Fake it, till you make it" and Imposter Syndrome.

Our prescription for this episode is to lean into vulnerability and curiosity. We need to create self-efficacy and confidence that even though we don't have all the answers immediately, we can figure things out.

This PART 1, as we really dug into this topic, so look for PART 2 to launch May 13th (next week) at our normal time.

Past Episode Referenced:
S4 E11: Why Do Leaders Feel Isolated? 

To talk more about management training, reach out to us at info@roman3.ca or through our LinkedIn page at https://www.linkedin.com/company/roman3

Don't forget to sign up for our New Quarterly Newsletter that launched in the fall of 2024!

About Our Hosts!
James is an experienced business coach with a specialization in HR management and talent attraction and retention. 

Coby is a skilled educator and has an extensive background in building workforce and organizational capacity. 

For a little more on our ideas and concepts, check out our Knowledge Suite or our YouTube Channel, Solutions Explained by Roman 3.

Transcript

[ANNOUNCER]: 0:00

Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness,  not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.

[COBY]: 0:10

Did we lose a patient?

[JAMES]: 0:12

No, that's just my lunch.

[COBY]: 0:14

Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby, he's James. And let's get  started with a question. How do new leaders learn to trust themselves?

[JAMES]: 0:29

well, if you want the simplified but probably too true answer, it's often  through experience and just making mistakes. self trust is, it's an interesting angle in leadership  development because it's similar but quite different. Different from confidence because  a leader with self trust, it, it's often or so if, if they have low self trust they're often,  you know, overthinking decisions or they over rely on external validation. We see  it a lot with struggling to hold boundaries, with staff, or trying to copy other people's  leadership styles. whereas if you have more healthy self trust, you're more likely to  accept that not every decision will feel perfectly certain. there's a level of just being comfortable  with the uncomfortable. You can have a higher tolerance for uncertainty and adapt without  really losing yourself. I, think a big piece is self trust. Really helps you to stay grounded,  when you receive pushback on your decisions. And what's interesting is that a lack of self  trust doesn't always present as insecurity. oftentimes it presents as some of the things  that we talk about probably way too often like micromanagement or indecision or inconsistency.  defensiveness is a big piece of. So what I would like to explore in our conversation today is why  is self trust so important? Like what, why is this an important thing to talk about? And I kind of  identified a few of those. The psychology behind building self trust and then some  practical ways that we can begin to actually develop that self trust.

[COBY]: 2:37

Yeah, I think it's going to be really good for us to dig into kind of like you say  some of the psychology where it comes from, kind of like what it looks like from that perspective.  But I also think that we should make sure that we're digging into what this looks  like operationally. How can we do it? Functional standpoint, like again almost like the, the, the,  the psychology what and why and how and then maybe even like the operational what why and how we'll…

[JAMES]: 3:01

probably, yeah, there's the individual perspective on how self  trust or a lack of self trust affects individual leaders. But there's also  that operational like if you have leaders in your organization who have a low degree  of self trust that's going to impact your operations quite significantly.

[COBY]: 3:19

Yeah. Or you listening. How can I build self trust in myself and then how can I act with  self trust in my job? Right. So do that. Ah, yeah. I think that starting with the psychology, almost  like internally or in ourselves, is probably the best place for us, for us to get started.  because really in a lot of ways self trust is kind of that first real leadership skill. It's  that first kind of essential thing that we need. Because a lot of us, we think about leadership,  we think that it's more about authority, it's more about technical expertise, it's about knowing all  the answers, it's knowing what to say, when to say it and how to say it. But the reality is  that those things really kind of have to come from a foundation of self trust or almost like  a leadership maturity. Like there's almost like that, that piece of that, that internal efficacy,  the internal trust that shows almost like a mature place for us to be in our leadership journey.

[JAMES]: 4:26

So I think we need to actually jump, like provide a bit of a definition of what are  we actually talking about when we use the term self trust? And it's, I see it really as the  ability to rely on your own judgment, your own values and your capacity to respond even  when the outcome is uncertain. Right. It's, it's that it has a connection to confidence. But I,  I see it a little bit different in that we really. Self trust is almost,  I see it almost as a prerequisite to being confident in your abilities.

[COBY]: 5:07

Yeah. No, and that's a really, that's actually a really good observation because, I mean  like, because what self trust does it influences like how we make decision kind of in uncertainty.  Like when things are kind of ambiguous. Are ambiguous when things have ambiguity to them.

[JAMES]: 5:25

Yeah.

[COBY]: 5:26

there we go. How you actually make decisions in those. In the situations,  how we handle when there's competing priorities, when the path is unclear, how we handle how we set  and communicate our boundaries. Right. So these are all things that is required to be able to,  to you know, have that confidence. It's also about how we respond to mistakes and then how  do we show up for those that report to us in that part of our team. Right. These are all  the things that are needed to be able to have the confidence in the different situations,  knowing that they can handle it by having the trust that they can do these types of things.

[JAMES]: 6:02

Yeah. It's interesting because it, this conversation really makes me think about a  situation, of you know, coaching some new leaders through their own decision making. And we talked  about how it can present differently and one of the ways that I've seen it present is with  high anxiety, a lack of self trust. And it's funny because from a staff perspective they,  they probably wouldn't see that thinking about the, the individual, the coaching, conversations  that I've had recently, this individual was pretty good at kind of maintaining the, the confidence  of the, the team and delivering their decisions with a level of authority. And then it's the  anxiety that sets in afterwards. It's the the, the voice in the back of the head saying did you  handle that the right way? Are people judging you for the way that you said that? Are you,  did you actually do what you said you do or is everybody just looking at you and recognizing  that you have no idea what you're doing and you're just going flying by the seat of your pants? All  that is how I've seen it play out very far too often. And it's why a lack of self trust can  be so destructive because it eats away at your confidence and it eats away at your ability to  kind of maintain that level of leadership, capacity that we expect in our organizations.

[COBY]: 7:49

Well, I mean you're 100% right. That is probably a very common feeling,  a very common after the fact reality for many,  many people. I'm sure people listening to this goes, yeah, I've been in that situation before.

[JAMES]: 8:03

I think we've all been in that situation before. Right. And we get that especially.

[COBY]: 8:08

But like it's, it's if that situation is something because you're new, that's a bit more  that's almost a bit more normal. If you're in it for a while and you're still feeling that way,  that's when things are kind of getting concerning because like when we don't  have that kind of self trust that can lead to things like over explaining,  like feeling the need to constantly just like, you know, give lots and lots.

[JAMES]: 8:32

Always justifying your decisions.

[COBY]: 8:33

Absolutely. Or it could be overly controlling because again like it's the idea of  I feel like I should have a better handle on this so I'm going to have to you know, really kind of  like hold it, hold it much tighter. avoiding decisions. Right. Can't make, I don't want  to make the decision so I'm just going to kick it down the road. So this is a matter of if we don't  know what to do, we'll almost like mimic what other people are Doing like, we'll try to like,  oh, I read this book and they did this. Or, you know, almost like you're grasping for a process  or advice just because you just don't know how to handle it yourselves. Which can really lead to,  Sometimes it's a matter of, like, that hiding the insecurity that we feel behind, like, bravado and  overconfidence and like, almost like the trying to, like, you know, again, mask it in a way.

[JAMES]: 9:23

Yeah. There's a couple things that I want to pick up on that you talked,  about there. And I'll start with the, the mimicking idea that. And I've seen this a lot.  some of our projects over the years have really. We've had to do a lot of leadership coaching,  kind of as we've been embedded in organizations, either in a interim or in a fractional capacity.  and I don't know how many times I've entered into kind of some of these conversations with,  leaders. Some of them are very experienced, some of them are new. And it's. Well, I read a book  on leadership and it told me to do these things and I've tried them and it doesn't work. And it's  because there are. There are so many leadership models out there. There are so many leadership,  structures out there there. But leadership is a. Can be a very individual. it has to be authentic,  I think, is what I'm trying to say. And I think that's where the, the challenge comes with trying  to mimic somebody else's leadership style, is that it often comes across as inauthentic,  which creates its own set of, challenges and just perpetuates this cycle of. Well, people aren't  responding. They don't, You know, the anxiety is building because you're not able to do or get the  outcomes that the book or the expert or the guru is telling you you should be able to get because  you're not. You're trying to replicate somebody else's system. we've talked about this in. I don't  remember what episode or what piece, before, but I have kind of a weird and unique leadership style  in. That is very authentic to me because I'm a very sarcastic person. I tend to joke around a  bit more than, like, if somebody, you was to watch me or follow me around, in leadership  conversations and try to replicate the way that I speak to people, the way that I engage with

[COBY]: 11:45

people,

[JAMES]: 11:47

it could be very challenging because  it's very much tuned to who I Am and how I present myself. I'm.

[COBY]: 11:59

So yeah, you're right about that specifically because, I mean,  yeah, you have a very funny way that you talk to people that is very authentic to  you that if someone were to read a transcript of the way that you talk

[JAMES]: 12:12

to the teams, they would be, oh my goodness. Without context,  just reading my words would be terrible. Absolutely, horrible.

[COBY]: 12:18

Yeah. But I mean the idea of mimicking is like again, it's almost like the equivalent  of like if you ever been to like, like a discount store, like a dollar store and bought something  like a pair of gloves or a hat or something like that, and it's such poor quality that like you  wear it like twice and you wear the fingers out and the seams rip, stuff like that. It's almost  like saying that a glove is a glove, whether it's, you know, a high end glove made with,  you know, hand stitched or it's a cheap knockoff from a dollar store. Right. It's an idea of like,  you know, it's a poor knockoff of the original is kind of how I see a lot of the mimicking  others. Like I remember one client we had, it wasn't much about. So it was some of it in his  in his leadership style was also in his decisions. He had this mentor that had great success in,  you know, like 25 years ago in a different industry and was telling him what he did in  his roles. So this client was trying to mimic that even though it was a different time,  a different industry, complete, everything was completely different. And he was like,  well, this worked for him, so why can't it work for me? And that's why leadership.

[JAMES]: 13:29

Nothing's changed in business in 25 years.

[COBY]: 13:32

Exactly right. And everything is just rinse and repeat. There's no,  there's no, there's no nuance or no, you know, anything like that. But I mean like,  that's one of the things that when we see people reading leadership books or watching,  you know, like experts and they try to mimic what those people have done, we always,  we always advise and say, you know what? Keep in mind the context of when that happened,  of how that worked. About what? About again, anything. Honestly, pre Covid is really is  probably not going to be as relevant now as it may have been in 2019. Right. So. So  being aware of that and what this really brings me to is that this is just varying degrees of figure

[JAMES]: 14:11

to you make is right, it is. I. And before we jump into that, the other piece that  I really wanted to, Capitalize on or go back to that you want to emphasize. One of the things that  you said was the over explaining. Yeah, because I see this present itself all the time. and I can  even like, I can see it in my own professional journey. when I early in leadership positions,  the, the feeling like I had to explain every little detail to people in order  to convince them that my decision was the right decision. When ultimately I need to  present people with the why. Right. Why. This decision is important, but part of leadership  is making tough decisions that people are not going to agree with. Hm. That's fine.  I've explained what my decision is and why I've made that decision. Now we are moving  forward. Right. There's that self trust that it. I mean going back to my first statement,  some of this comes with just experience and mistakes. And we've all made enough of enough  mistakes over the years that hopefully we're only making them once or twice, not over and over and  over again. But I see that need to over explain or justify every decision, and convince people  that every single decision that you make is right. that's not effective leadership.

[COBY]: 15:52

No, no. One of the things that I learned early on was because I fell into that, into that  trap too about, about over explaining. But the one thing that I came, I came to realize is the  simple explanation that I would give most of the time when I'd make an unpopular decision was based  on the information that I had. This was the least worst option. Yeah. And that's. It's really. That  summarizes almost 90% of the bad. Of the, of the, you know, unpopular or difficult decisions that  I've had to melee. That's, that's the truth. And that usually, usually it is. So that's really all  the justification is kind of in the median. And if you need to dig into it more with questions,  that's fine, but not. But not really sharing a whole lot more than that. But again,  all of these I do think are just really different flavors of fake it till you make it. And that's  something that I've always had a large issue with. And we've talked about this a few other  podcasts talk about some of our webinars. That it is probably one of the most common leadership  myths that is probably one of the most harmful leadership myths that we just really try to  avoid or we try to encourage people to not fall into because it's so prevalent out there. People  often think that it's a great thing. It's not. And something that we really want to make sure  that there's clarity behind behind why. And I mean one of the big things is that it going back to one  of the things we talked about that self trust does do is it allows you to make decisions when you're,  when you're in uncertain situations. But fake it till you make it encourages you to hide the  uncertainty. Right. Encourages you to almost, almost like, almost like feel ashamed by it or  to try to use deception that, that, that, that these situations are you know, less complex than  they actually are. And, and any comments that does create new is very brittle, very you know..

[JAMES]: 17:42

very delicate and well it's just paper thin. Right. Because it's a,  it's fake. it's right in the name. Fake it till you make it. The confidence is  fake. The decision making is fake. The, the certainty that you are trying to project is  fake. And what's even worse is that it. In my opinion, what's worse than all of that is  the fact that it encourages, it encourages you to to hide any level of vulnerability.

[COBY]: 18:10

Yes.

[JAMES]: 18:10

And vulnerability is such a huge leadership skill. If you not,  I mean it's not about laying out all of your insecurities and fears and personal problems  on your staff and that type of vulnerability. But if you are not open to having been wrong, you also  can't learn from that. Right. Vulnerability showing a level of vulnerability. and it's a  incredible relationship building tool. It's an incredible way to start to build psychological  safety through a leadership like leading people or showing people how to be vulnerable. And like  that vulnerability is not necessarily a bad thing. in our workplaces can be a really powerful  tool and this whole fake it till you make it piece just, it destroys any chance of that.

[COBY]: 19:12

Yeah. Because you're right like vulnerability is almost like how  you become like a battle tested leader. Right. Like I mean you,  it's how you build the scar tissue that makes you more resilient as a leader. But it's a matter of  identify. Okay. I'm not 100 sure what the best outcome here. So we're going to try  this and let's and hope that, and hope that it works or I've been in meetings for like okay,  I'm going to have to be a little vulnerable with you folks right now and tell you,  tell you the situation something that I'm not. I'm sure how to handle those are things that you know  that you need to trust yourself and trust that you know that that is normal. That is okay. That  is almost like Powerful when you're in those kind of situations. Because if you can't do that is how  can you learn? And if you're feeling like you have to just fake it, put on the bravado or put on the,  that fake veneer of brittle confidence. It makes you know, you don't ask the right questions to  know if what you're going to do is over promising. Right. You don't know if you're going to be able  to actually meet those expectations or because, because you just don't have the background. You  didn't feel confident enough or trust yourself enough to ask the hard questions to show that  maybe you don't, you're, that you are. Maybe you didn't have the confidence to show that you're not  infallible. And that's one of the things that really is something that you have to, to be,  to have self trust. You need to acknowledge and lean into the fact that you are not infallible.

[JAMES]: 20:47

That myth that leaders have to have all of the answers. Is such a destructive problem.

[COBY]: 20:57

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 20:59

We can't know everything all of the time. Nobody can. And it's okay to like I,  I don't know how it's okay to rely on your team whether that is your, the rest of the. Maybe  you're part of a broader leadership team. maybe you are a middle level, middle, middle manager  and you're relying on your immediate subordinates for lack of a better term. But there's a lot of  knowledge and expertise around you that you can draw on and recognizing that leaders don't have  to be infallible all of the time that you can ask for help or you can ask for other people's  opinions and have other people's opinions. Opinions influence your decision making. These  are actually quite powerful pieces. It goes along with the vulnerability, it goes along with the,  the confidence. It takes a level of confidence and self assurance to be able to admit that  you don't have all of the answers. It also sets that expectation with your team that when they  encounter situations that they may be unfamiliar with that they're willing to ask for help. I know  that like I do not want my team members to think that they cannot ask each other or me for help.  Right. So if I want to set that expectation for them, I also need to model that as a leader.

[COBY]: 22:34

Absolutely. And the other thing too is that when we do the  fake it till you make it. I mean let's be honest, you're being deceptive Y and  and you're being dishonest Right. So then any trust or any kind of,  like, camaraderie you're building with your team is based on the lies. Yeah.

[JAMES]: 22:57

So how is it. And this… Let's be clear. We're not saying that you have to walk into every  situation and say, hey, guys, I've got a big decision and I don't know what to do. Yeah,  right. Like, we're. We're not saying that you should not project some level of confidence.  but there's a difference between, projecting certainty and projecting confidence. projecting  the idea that, I don't need anybody's help because I got this. Don't worry,  peasants. You sit down and do your work, and I. I will handle all the big decisions. Versus,  hey, we've got this situation. Here's where my head's at. I'm open to ideas.

[COBY]: 23:40

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 23:42

I mean, it needs to be contextually appropriate.

[COBY]: 23:44

Right. Well, I mean, like, one of the simple things that I've always done is,  like, when something comes my way, I'm like, well, I didn't have a plan for that. I'm not  too sure where to start. I'll pull together like, a leadership team huddle and be like,  okay, here's the situation. I'm not too sure where to start. Let's brainstorm some ideas.

[JAMES]: 24:00

Yeah.

[COBY]: 24:01

That It's. That's all you have to do. It doesn't need to be any more complex than that.

[JAMES]: 24:05

I mean, I can. With. I mean, this isn't giving away too much information. like,  I've been presented with a problem where there I was providing some leadership to a client,  and the bloody office burned down. And that was not a situation I was prepared to deal with.  Right. But going to people like, okay, here's what I need to do. Here are my priorities. Here  is what I need to do first, second, and third. But I'm going to need your help.

[COBY]: 24:37

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 24:37

Tell me, like, give me some feedback. Am I on the right path? Like,  just stuff happens that you cannot be fully prepared for. And being  able to rely on others builds trust, builds communication, builds, level of authentic  leadership that I think is really important.[COBY]: Well, the thing. Let's be very clear.  You and I often step into very chaotic positions that are messy, they're unclear. Built our business around. Like, people don't hire us when the ship is sailing smoothly.

[COBY]: 25:16

Well, it's. It's not even that. Well, I mean, it's the hire us when  they're in a transition, whether they're transitioning for Growth and things are  running well or they're transitioning from crisis and things are not running well.

[JAMES]: 25:27

Sorry. When they don't hire us,  when they just want somebody to steer the ship in the same direction it's always been going.

[COBY]: 25:32

Exactly. And to be honest, we get more call around crisis because they're like, oh no,  we have to address this right now. but like, yeah, but we walk into these transitional  environments like for a living. We walk into the like people like really tough situations  we have. We don't have the luxury of of building confidence over months. We have to start making  some stuff happen now because usually they call us in too late. Right. Or not too late,  but like way later than they should have. Right. And the way that you and I are able to  do that on a, and have consistent positive outcomes is that we lead with curiosity,  not certainty. We go in and going, well, this is different. I'm not too sure what to do. Let's,  let's, let's talk this through together or go, oh, wow, that's going to be that's going to be a tough  problem. Let's figure out what the least worst outcome is going to be and work towards that. And  it's, and it is just the fact that you and I can. We focus on trying to communicate transparently.  We focus on trying to just, you know, like, make it very clear where we can, where we know exactly  what to do and where we're going to need to ask for help. And we are, we are upfront about it.  But you and I have so much self trust in the work that we do. Partially because of the experience,  partially because of all the flipping years of mistakes we've been making. We've made that we,  that we know that we can, we don't know how to handle. We don't know every step of every  situation we walk into. But we know that we have the tools, resources, support and other experts  behind us to figure it out. We've never done that. We can't. That we can figure it out. And that's.

[JAMES]: 27:07

I know what, yeah. And I know we'll probably get to it later.  But one of the reasons why we can do that is because we have a framework that we can rely  on. Right. We have a system like we've talked about our integrity, leadership,  framework many times. And just having something that it's not about, like this idea of  replicating somebody else's leadership model, it's about having a framework,  that you can rest on when you are presented with a new scenario because there's always going to be  a new challenge or a new crisis that you were not prepared for, could, did not anticipate, could not  have anticipated. Yeah but having something that you can rely on to guide your decision making,  even if that's just a ah, values list of. I need to make sure that I do that. I always  keep this front of mind just something to funnel or filter. Your process can be such a huge asset.

[COBY]: 28:13

Yeah, you're right. So I want to move into talking a little bit more about some of the  psychology behind self trust because there's a few things that I think are really worth mentioning  and then I wouldn't mind giving some tips. well we're, we're running really long in this episode.  but anyway the psychology behind self trust that I think it's important for people to be aware of  we talked about like I think it to make, it's kind of one of them. But how it connects to,  what it connects to from a psychological perspective is the imposter syndrome. Right. That  is the idea that new leaders often misrepresent kind of normal uncertainty as incompetence. The  idea that because they don't know what to do in every situation or when the face of the problem  they can't see every single step of solution along the way. Then they think, they think that they're,  that they're incompetent and they feel like they shouldn't be here. And that's not how  anything works. Like that is something that is so self deprecating and so self damaging that the,  this expectation of certainty is something that is kind of what feeds the imposter syndrome. And,  and then, and like we say that's why we talk about the frameworks of things like integrity.  Leadership is if you have a guide for how that you, you don't know what you're going to do yet  but you've got a system to figure it out. That's all you have to have to feel like you've got,  you've got a handle on it. And if you, but if you feel like you need every single step  sort of along the way that's when you feel like you are going to be incompetent because you can't  imagine every micro action that you're going to take in the instant you hear the problem.

[JAMES]: 29:51

Yeah. And the whole imposter syndrome piece is made worse by the fact that we view  leadership like if you view leaders as infallible and unable to show vulnerability. If that's the  culture of the environment that you are working in or that you have worked in in the past,  and that's kind of ingrained into you. That's more likely to create a feeling of this imposter  syndrome. If you've only been presented with the idea that in order to be a good leader,  you have to have all of the answers all of the time, or that you can't show vulnerability or  you're not allowed to make mistakes, that's where the imposter syndrome really thrives. And it's  such a damaging mentality for the organization and for the individual experiencing it, because it,  it cuts out the human aspect of leadership. If the only responsibility of a leader was to make  the best decision or the right decision in every situation, I mean, then you're,  you're, it's become robotic, right? And that is not true leadership. That's decision making,  which is an aspect of leadership. But leadership is more than just making decisions.

[COBY]: 31:18

Right? And the thing is that to counter imposter syndrome is probably the next  psychological point that I want to bring up, which is self efficacy, right? Which really is just the  belief that you can figure things out. And, and actually that belief is actually more important  than believing that you already have the answer or that you already know what to do, right? It's,  that is that sense, that sense of trust in yourself that, okay, I can figure this out,  or there's, I have the author, I have, I have it within me or within my, you know,  my approach or my strategies or the people in my network. I can get to an answer. It's, you know,  with a little bit of time to prep, that is what all self efficacy really needs to look like. And  that's the thing that I think why you and I can step into the, to these roles the way that we  do because of the fact that we've, again, we've got lots of experience behind us to build that  efficacy up. But we are able to, we're blessed to have a lot of great, you know, like, we've  had our own great mentors. We've had, we work with an incredible group of, in our network and we were  never more than a phone call away from getting some help on something we don't know. But we,  whenever we are faced with, with a, with a situation, we typically are like, I have,  I've never handled a situation like this before. We probably get that feeling 50 times a year.

[JAMES]: 32:45

And I mean, that's part of the cool thing about working with so many different  organizations, right? in so many different Contexts is that we are constantly thrown  into situations that are really like. It's not always completely new. No,  but it is. The context is always different.

[COBY]: 33:05

The, the market's often different.

[JAMES]: 33:06

The market's often different. The the scale of the problems are often different. So  the unwavering. You know what? I can. I'll figure it out. Yeah, I'll figure it out because I have  people who I can rely on. Right. Yes, we, I don't know if we've talked about the great  on the podcast before, but that's probably something that we should explore at some point.

[COBY]: 33:32

Yeah, we dug into it on the episode about, about why leaders feel isolated.

[JAMES]: 33:36

Right, Right. Having a support network, having a mentor, a role guide, a the professionals  who you can draw on expertise to help you figure these things out. But it goes along with being  able. Like if you are in the fake it till you make it, mentality, you're not going to ask for help.  Right. Because you think you have to have all the answers yourselves. Right. If you have the,  the imposter syndrome and you feel like, you know, you're, if, if you ask for help,  somebody's going to recognize that you are just an imposter. I mean that's kind of the,  the name of the syndrome. But I mean it. All of these things are interconnected. Being able,  asking for help requires a level of vulnerability. Recognizing that you don't know all of the answers  immediately requires a level of vulnerability. Which is why this whole like the. That's why I,  I really despise the whole fake it till you make it language and how it still is  presented as a. Some sort of valid approach to leadership because, it cuts you off at the knees.  Vulnerability is one of the most important aspects of being an effective leader. It's  authentic and people connect to authenticity. They, they may not be able to pinpoint exactly  how you are being inauthentic, but people can read and pick up on inauthentic behaviors very easily.

[COBY]: 35:20

Yeah. And I think we should be very clear too with self efficacy  is that self efficacy can't be a blind belief in your ability to figure things  out. It has to be grounded in some type of tactical strategic framework,  effort, plan something. Right. Because I mean there's again, you really want to make sure,  you really want to make sure that you've done. You've got something to, to kind of  anchor your confidence in your ability to, to, to figure things out. and make sure that this is..

[JAMES]: 35:54

where things like deconstruction is such a powerful tool. Right. The ability to break down  a large problem into its component parts and then begin to chip away at them. Right. It's,  it's also like, that's where having a framework for decision making becomes such a powerful tool.  Right. Arm yourself with different tools that you can, pull in that will begin to build that,  self efficacy piece. It will help you to be a better leader overall.

[COBY]: 36:32

Yeah, I agree. All right, so let's talk about some, some tips that people can use to kind  of help build that confidence and that efficacy and in themselves. So the first thing I want to  point to is something we've kind of been saying this whole time, but the idea of normalizing, not  knowing things like, I mean, we've talked about this a number of times where the phrases like,  I don't know that yet, but let me find out or I'm not too sure, let me get back to you.  Those types of. Those are, are small. Ah, statement. Those are small statements of  vulnerability. I don't know. But with the efficacy of. But I'll figure it out. Is it can be how that  looks like. Because that again, is that sense of building trust. That's an authentic statement that  shows some vulnerability, but shows some, but shows some efficacy behind it. Right?

[JAMES]: 37:21

Oh, that's a good question. let me get back to you.

[COBY]: 37:24

Yeah, so yeah, simple, right?

[JAMES]: 37:26

You are acknowledging the, the statement or the question that's coming at you. and you are,  you're not deflecting, you are addressing it head on and saying, you know what,  that's a great point. I need to figure out a response and get back to you. Simple but powerful.

[COBY]: 37:48

Very much so. So the next one I want to mention was that's what you kind of alluded to.  It's the idea of, of having a kind of a personal leadership, almost like board of advisors. I  see in air quotes, like having that network. We talked about our great program again. So again,  check out the episode about, about why do leaders feel isolated? We touch on,  on it there for sure. But the idea of knowing who that you can talk to to help figure stuff out,  like, you know, whether it's mentors, whether it's peers, whether it's trusted colleagues,  whether it's people that your former co workers, someone to just bounce ideas off of who can  help you either reality check the situation that you're in, help you, maybe they have some kind of  knowledge or approaches that maybe you don't, you know, maybe you know that you don't have it, kind  of like on top of your head or even just kind of having someone you can like, like, like verbalize  your thoughts too. and then almost like help you kind of see, get some self reflection around them,  that can be something very powerful. Because like again, if you feel like you have to isolate  yourself because you feel like you're an imposter, because you have to fake it till you make it your,  you're just compounding the, the stress and anxiety you're going to feel and you're going  to end up showing a lot of those things that James had mentioned earlier about over promising,  under delivering and all that kind of like stuff because you just, you're not looking for help.

[JAMES]: 39:12

And I've been telling like one thing that I've been saying to clients for years is,  and that I firmly believe 90% of business is relationships. Yeah, it's relationships  with your team, it's relationships with your boss, it's relationships with your clients,  it's relationships with your vendors, it's relationships with your colleagues.  If you are really effective at building and maintaining positive professional relationships,  then being able to, like, when you're presented with a situation that you're not sure how to  handle, being able to draw on that network of relationships that you've cultivated over time  can be so incredibly powerful. Like, everybody has their own domains of expertise and if you  kind of keep an inventory of people, it's kind of a cynical way of maybe presenting it. But  I mean really though, if you, if you are, if you are effective at building and maintaining  relationships and people enjoy working with you and you can ask, people like to be valued  for their skills and for their knowledge. And if you can recognize people's skills and knowledge  in a appropriate and professional manner, these are really powerful tools that you can draw on  to when you are presented with situations that you're not quite sure how to handle.

[COBY]: 40:43

Well, I mean, you and I are big fans of the like we randomly reach out to people to  just grab coffee and catch up with. We try not to let too many relationships kind of get stagnant  because again, part of it is that we, you know, we also value that, you know, it's, it's hard to  be part of the conversation if you're not talking to anybody. but it's also the fact that, you know,  when you, you know, don't be a fair, weathered friend and only kind of someone when you things  are good or when you need something, but you know, try and maintain those relationships, just kind of  keep, just kind of keep them active. So that way when you do need something. It's. You're not just  coming to them and taking, taking, taking. Right. So there's, there's that side of it as well.  So, so the last thing I wanted to talk about. Wow, we are really, really over on time.

[JAMES]: 41:28

Is the We've been doing that a lot lately. You're right.

[COBY]: 41:34

the last one I talk about is, is look for moments of reflection.  So one of the things that I talked about with teams that I've done some  leadership training with is the benefit. And again, this goes back to my, to, to, to my,  my psychological perspective on things is, is the power of critical reflection. And often say,  you know, that if you're going on this leadership journey, it wouldn't hurt to like have like weekly  or bi weekly reflection points. Sometimes it's journaling, sometimes it's a matter of like that.  Sometimes it's a matter of the conversational pieces that you kind of have like, you know,  like bi weekly check ins with, with someone, whether there's a mentor or whomever and figure  out what did I learn? What did I handle well? What did I not handle well? What did I hesitate  too long on? What would I do differently next time? These are some basic simple questions that  can allow you to get some retroactive or sorry. not retroactive, but like, but get some like  hindsight clarity on what you could do to help kind of like build some efficacy around. Okay,  you know what? I didn't do this well, but now I know what I would do if this happens again.  Those types of moments can be really powerful and I always recommend critical reflection.

[JAMES]: 42:41

Yeah. And this is an area where a, leadership coach can be  such an effective asset for you. we've talked about how we often like through  the course of our work we end up coaching leaders, but we are not leadership coaches.

[COBY]: 42:57

No.

[JAMES]: 42:58

there. If we also partner with some incredible leadership coaches. Yes. the work that,  the support that they can provide, the that critical reflection that, hey, I was presented  with this situation and I'm not sure that I handled it quite as well as I should have. Having  somebody who you is, who is a trusted advisor, is such an asset. And we'd be more than happy to put  you in touch with one or more of our partners who have really deep expertise in this area.  because leadership like to have that one on one leadership coach from somebody who can really help  to structure your leadership journey and develop your leadership capacity. It's a huge, huge asset.

[COBY]: 43:53

Agreed. Agreed. okay. So we are like almost at the length of A  full episode right now. We're only halfway through this conversation.

[JAMES]: 44:02

Yeah, we haven't even really talked about the operational side of this.

[COBY]: 44:05

We have not dug into it much at all. So how about this? What if we were  to end this conversation now, and then take the first part of the conversation as an episode,  launch it at our normal time, and then continue going on to the next part of the conversation,  and then launch it as maybe a bonus episode on our off week? Do you think that.

[JAMES]: 44:29

Well, you don't think people want  to listen to us drone on in one episode, for two hours?

[COBY]: 44:34

No, I don't. I think that we need to give people at least. At least a week  break in between. yeah, I mean, I think that might. I mean, we've never done.  We've never done that before, but we also haven't gone over this long before. Yeah,  but. Yeah, so maybe we'll just wrap it up. I'll just give kind of the.

[JAMES]: 44:49

Yeah, we'll cut it here and we'll continue the  conversation for as long as it may be a shorter, bonus episode next week.

[COBY]: 44:57

Okay. So, that being said, to continue this conversation, join us next week, not next  episode, but the week before the next episode, for a bonus episode of the second part of this  conversation. But that about does it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access  to video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit Roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us.

[ANNOUNCER]: 45:21

For more information on topics like these, don't forget to Visit us at Roman3.ca.  Side effects of this podcast may include improved retention, high productivity,  increased market share, employees breaking out in spontaneous dance,  dry mouth, aversion to the sound of James voice, desire to find better podcasts...