Is Comfort Making Us More Productive or More Complacent?

This episode touches on the theme of Practical Psychology and Strengthening Culture.

In this episode, we explore the double-edged sword that is being comfortable. We dig into the psychology and realities of both sides of comfort in our jobs and in our organizations.

Our prescription for this episode is to prioritize curiosity and critical reflection in how we approach our work and how we respond to external factors that affect our work and our organizations.

Past Episode Referenced:
S4 E4: Why Does It Feel Like Us vs. Them At Work?

S4 E5: Why Am I So Exhausted After Work Every Day?

S4 E16: Doing More With Less: How Do You Succeed During Hard Times?

To talk more about building comfortable and innovative systems, reach out to us at info@roman3.ca or through our LinkedIn page at https://www.linkedin.com/company/roman3

Don't forget to sign up for our New Quarterly Newsletter that launched in the fall of 2024!

About Our Hosts!
James is an experienced business coach with a specialization in HR management and talent attraction and retention. 

Coby is a skilled educator and has an extensive background in building workforce and organizational capacity. 

For a little more on our ideas and concepts, check out our Knowledge Suite or our YouTube Channel, Solutions Explained by Roman 3.

Transcript

[ANNOUNCER]: 0:00

Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness,  not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.

[COBY]: 0:10

Did we lose a patient?

[JAMES]: 0:12

No, that's just my lunch.

[COBY]: 0:14

Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby, he's James. And let's get started  with a question. Is comfort making us more productive or more complacent?

[JAMES]: 0:30

So comfort is not inherently bad at all and I don't think that it needs to be avoided. I  want to get that stated clearly up front. we could broaden this topic significantly and talk about  how we seek comfort through every aspect of our life, whether it's financial comfort or physical  comfort or emotional comfort or whatever. But I do want us to stay focused on the workplace. And yes,  I do recognize the irony of me actually saying that we're going to stay focused. But even here  within the context of work, comfort is a good thing. It's the natural outcome from hard work  and competence. As we get better at what we do, we also become more comfortable within our roles with  the tasks, with the, we become more proficient. So there's a lot of significant upsides to comfort.  I think though, when we're talking like, is it the key to improved performance or improved  productivity or general success overall is that we have to ensure that comfort is not a residency,  it's a resting place. It's where we, if we sit too long in that state of comfort,  then we run into some challenges. But if we use it as intended as a way of a spot  to rejuvenate to after the push or after the, an intense period, that is I think,  a real strength and a real asset to how comfort can help us as individuals and as organizations.

[COBY]: 2:25

Yeah, you know, I like that idea that comfort is a resting place,  not a residence. I mean it's, it's something that kind of gives a little bit of context to  it because I've always viewed comfort and being comfortable professionally,  everything like that, as a bit of a double edged sword. So the idea that, you know,  like that it can be the thing that we are striving for because again, there are,  you know, there are, like you said, there are benefits obviously to it. It's not inherently bad,  but it's also can be one of those things that can cut, cut the other way. It can be the downfall of  again, momentum, innovation, progression, all those kind of things like that too.  So recognizing that it really is a bit of a double edged sword. But I do think, I think

[JAMES]: 3:14

it's important to also like, let's You're. It can be a bad. Like,  it can be too much of Any good thing can be bad. Like, it. In. In all moderation,  in all things is important. And I think what I want to. Unsurprisingly, I find the whole,  language and mentality around, the endless hustle culture to be completely toxic and unproductive,  for society, for individuals, for employees, for organizations in general. And in kind of  that hustle culture mentality, comfort is almost villainized. And I, I want us to avoid that level  of conversation. I think that is a. Again, taking things to the extreme is not helpful.

[COBY]: 4:05

you're right, because, I mean, like, there are a lot of. Again, like,  you know, we're. We're two white guys on a podcast talking about being comfortable,  and it could easily spin into making people feel bad for wanting  comfort or for having comfort or if you're comfortable, you're doing something wrong.

[JAMES]: 4:20

I mean, yeah, no, that's. That is a. That's a toxic mentality that is  really good at generating clicks, but it is good for little else.

[COBY]: 4:30

Yeah, that's very manosphere, really. I mean, it's. It's. It's. It's not. It's not a  great place to be. But I do think that, yeah, again, part of what we like to do  is really talk about kind of the nuance and the reality of it too. Because, I mean, like,  really, because comfort is inherently bad. It's a state, it's a thing. It's a. It's a neutral  place that the impact of it kind of is about how we respond to it, not necessarily because  it's inherently good or inherently bad. But I do want us to, like, put a little bit of parameters  on kind of like. Or give a little bit context of what we're talking about kind of by comfort at  work. Because I think we should look at it from. again, I want to talk a little bit about employee  comfort and a little bit organizational comfort, because both of them kind of are important. So,  like, we talk about employee comfort. This can be things like psychological safety can come from  comfort or predictability. You know, familiar routines, low perceived threat, emotional ease.  Those are the kind of things that can live with the. With the, or the employee piece.

[JAMES]: 5:30

And how often do we talk about consistency?

[COBY]: 5:32

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So we would be the worst people to kind of say comfort's bad,  not be comfortable. Because, I mean, we talk. Because again, these are all things that we want  in organizations. Right? I mean, organizational comfort can be things like stable processes.  Another thing that we Talk about constantly familiar markets, pretty predictable budgets,  long tenure teams, all, you know, the things that, you know, that we've talked about. But  then there's also the kind of the, the other side of it too, where it's the, this is the  way we've always done it. Thinking can also be some of the, the other side of that as well.  But I do think that it's important for us again, kind of. I think talking about employee comfort,  orientation, comfort are gonna be two helpful things. But I also think we should. Well,  what will happen is we're going to fall into our normal habits and I'm going to talk about it from  a psychological perspective and you're probably going to look at it from more of like a cultural,  operational cultural perspective. Yeah. So I mean, I mean, let's just be clear to.  Everyone knows we're going to do this. Let's just call it up right at the very beginning.

[JAMES]: 6:26

Okay. I want to, I want to jump on something that you said just a second ago when we  were. You're talking about kind of like we really promote a lot of concepts, a lot of work, a lot of  ideas that are by design, they kind of create a level of comfort. Right. building an environment  where there's psychological safety creates the comfort. you know, you talked about that,  you talked about familiar routines and structures. Comfort is the outcome of really good work.  And that's really important to recognize. Really good work will create comfort. The problem is too  much comfort will come, will create a lot of downstream effects that you're not going to  want. Like complacency, like a resistance to change, like a. That's not my job. like you've  mentioned it before the while, we've always done it this way in the past. So we need to  at some point in this conversation talk about that balance of how do we get into a. How do we build  the foundations and build an organization where people feel comfortable, comfortable to share,  comfortable to speak up, comfortable with the processes, comfortable with the expectations,  without creating an environment where people are so wrapped in the blanket of comfort that they  resist anything new. Because innovation, new processes change. Change can be very,  very good. And it is very, very important for, for organizations, for people, so much changes  in the marketplace, especially over the last year or so. Let's not go too far down that road.

[COBY]: 8:17

But there's.

[JAMES]: 8:18

When you are faced with unexpected  or unanticipated external factors, you need to be able to respond to those  things. And if you are wrapped in your blanket of comfort, are you going to be able to pivot?

[COBY]: 8:32

Yeah. Yeah. No. So I think how we want to structure this episode is let's talk about  the upside of it. Let's get into kind of the downside of it. Let's kind of talk about finding  that balance and then let's kind of give some practical advice on what you can do as leaders, as  individuals and as organizations to try to kind of maintain that balance. I think it's probably the  structure that we. So, yes. So let's jump into, kind of, into the upsides. Right. So I think that,  again, the psychological benefits to having comfort in your organization,  again, it is about reducing your cognitive load. It supports creativity when people,  people are more likely to take risks when they feel safe. again, it, it improves how  we collaborate. And as in organizations, it can create stability which can allow  for more consistent service delivery. It can create predictable routines that can cause,  you know, less stress and less errors, and better decision. Decision making. Right. It creates,  trust and consistency that, that creates strong, a smoother adoption. I mean there's a lot to be said  for kind of comfort, predictability, stability, little safety is where. It's kind of, it's kind  of where confidence grows from, is where. It's where good work can really come from. So I think  it's really important for us to make sure that, that that's very clear and, and out there as well.

[JAMES]: 9:57

Yeah. And I just want to, I'm going to push back on. Not, push back,  but I'm going to challenge you a little bit to talk a little bit more about cognitive,  load. Because we have talked about cognitive load on the podcast, before, but not everybody  may be familiar with that term. so maybe if you can kind of pull that piece apart a little bit.

[COBY]: 10:18

Yeah. So cognitive load is the amount of almost like mental work that we have to do in,  in our everyday. So again, like, it's the amount of pre planning. It's the amount of actual like,  kind of like the, the thinking that is involved in problem solving and  deconstructing, looking at all the angles, all those kind of pieces. It's, it's the,  it's the load that about, okay, I'm dealing with this person. I need to figure out my tact,  I need to figure out my approach. so it's the amount of like, again, pre work,  actual work and post work that our brains are doing in the, in the course of a day.

[JAMES]: 10:58

And then it's often why we come home exhausted. Even if you're not working  in necessarily a physical, role. You, can come home feeling mentally exhausted. It's often due  to that cognitive load. And there are elements of So how this kind of plays into comfort,  specifically with a lack of processes or with a lack of comfort or a lack  of connection. Consistency especially is typically how we often talk about it. You know,  if you don't get consistent expectations from managers or from higher ups or, you know,  there isn't that if you're constantly having to readjust and mentally be on edge or be on guard,  that's exhausting. So cognitive comfort can reduce that cognitive strain or that cognitive load that  is related to work. And it also the benefit of this and kind of why if we're talking about the,  the, the outward effects or the, the long. The, the benefits to an organization is if  we can free up people to not be so exhausted, mentally exhausted all the time. It creates. And  people can be more creative. They can explore new ideas, they can work through innovations,  new processes, new systems. If people are constantly, always at the, at their capacity,  at their mental, mental, physical, emotional capacity, there you're not going to get the  best from people. You will get. I mean you'll still get their work, but will you get their  innovation? Will you get their insights? Will you get their thoughts? Will you get their new ideas?

[COBY]: 12:37

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, you're right. So just to touch back if anyone's interested in  learning a little bit more about Cognitive load, we did an episode earlier this season where it's  like, I forget the act title but it's like, why am I so exhausted after work Is kind of was, was.  And we dug into Cognitive Load kind of in that, in a lot more depth. but no, but you're right  though about the like part of it too is that if we, if we remove the reactiveness of our  workplaces where everyone's constantly trying to figure out things, you know, and we make,  we create more stability and more predictable structures and more predictable processes. Then  we move from a reactive mode to a responsive mode and we just, we're comfortable with, okay,  I, I always know what to do because there's always a plan in place. I just follow the procedure and  I respond based on the training or based on the processes that have been done before me.  I don't have to figure it out. So that is a very different cognitive load for you to bring to the  workplace. And there's comfort in knowing, that I can figure it out. There's people around me that  can help me and there's processes in place to make sure that it gets done properly. That's a  very comfortable place to be. It makes easier to show up at work because you're less stressed and  then you make better decisions. Right. So, yeah, so there absolutely is that piece of. But again,  like I say, we build confidence and we build. And we push ourselves more. We can bring more  of our kind of like our whole mental game to the workplace when there is a level of confidence,  and safety and stability and predictability to our workplaces.

[JAMES]: 14:13

Yeah. And so the, the. The idea of comfort is it's fairly clear for individuals.  And I mean, we all kind of know why we want to be comfortable. We all kind of have a sense of  what comfort means for us specifically and what we get out of it. From an organizational perspective,  though, the upside of comfort is stability. If you, if the organization is. And from an  organizational comfort zone, perspective, kind of the things that are prerequisites for that in  my mind are, is that stability piece. It is having, teams, management teams, leadership  teams who are. Who know how to, set and manage, expectations with their staff, with their teams,  with the individuals. They have clear processes and rules. expectations are clearly defined and  laid out and we have, the ability to, support and manage, performance and individuals. Right. It's  all of these same things that, like the factors, it's our workplace culture, hierarchy really. you  know, it's being able to meet the expectations of being competitive, sufficient and equitable  within the factors, of your workplace. It's about building psychological safety, creating  an environment where people feel that they can belong, creating engagement in like, creating  an environment where people can fully engage in their work. That is an organizational comfort  zone. And that is an incredibly powerful tool to be able to drive organizational success, no matter  how you kind of define that. And I'm waving my hands and knocking my, mic all over the place.

[COBY]: 16:07

yeah, well, no, you're right, because part of it too is that when you're in a workplace that  you're. That you're not comfortable in and you don't feel safe in, then it's almost like you're  always activating your sympathetic nervous system. You're always in kind of fight or flight or freeze  mode. Right. And it's hard to bring your best. It's hard to feel like you belong. It's hard  to feel like you're safe to speak up when you're constantly in that fight or flight mode. So those  are the other benefits to it as well. Is that. Is that you are in a situation where you don't feel  that you constantly have to be, you know, like, you're, You're. You're ready for attack all the  time. There's a sense of. Of that safety brings comfort, brings that ability to relax, which opens  up more of your. Your higher brain functioning, which allows you to bring your best to work.

[JAMES]: 16:57

And that's a nice place to be. That's like, Honestly. Yeah. That from a organizational  and from a individual perspective, that is a great spot to be. And it's understandable  why the loss of that or the. The, you know, pushing somebody or pushing an organization  or an individual outside of that comfort zone tends to get a lot of resistance.  Because it is a good thing. It is what we are often seeking out of employment and out of,

[COBY]: 17:32

yeah.

[JAMES]: 17:34

In general, what we want in our lives is  to be able to have a degree of comfort and safety and security.

[COBY]: 17:40

Agreed. Okay. That being said, let's move on to the bad side of it.

[JAMES]: 17:44

Yeah. Because there are drawbacks to this as well.

[COBY]: 17:47

There really are. And I think that. And,  So I want to talk about a few different cognitive biases that kind of.

[JAMES]: 17:57

Of course you do.

[COBY]: 17:57

Yeah, obviously I do. We all knew that was coming. But this is kind of what fuels over  comfort or comfort dependence or makes us too protective of comfort and resistant to change.  Honestly, this is. These are the biases that create complacency. Let's be. Just be clear  about that. So the first one, again, I want to go in deeply onto these because, you know,  so you may. You may. For a change, you may have to reign me in. Let's keep that in mind.

[JAMES]: 18:22

Oh, this is going to be fun. All right.

[COBY]: 18:24

The first one I want to talk about is the status quo bias. which is. I mean,  it's kind of what it sounds like. It's about preferring the familiar even when  it's suboptimal. It's. This is what I know. This is what I'm used to. This is. This is what I want.  even if it's what. Even if what we have is not great, because the. Honestly,  this is. This is the bias that is the summary of. Is the W. No. Right. Yeah.

[JAMES]: 18:48

Is this kind of a. You and I have talked about. And I know I've heard you talk  about it several times about the. The idea that it's. People avoid a. Are more likely to avoid a  negative outcome, so they, They will stick with a bad option rather than run the risk of doing  something that could possibly not work out. Like, is that the same or is that a different angle?

[COBY]: 19:14

It is, it is a different angle. But it, but it definitely kind of run, it kind of runs  parallel to this because I mean, like, it's the idea of, of. Well, again, there's, there's the  idea of. I think you're kind of getting into kind of like the, the psychology around loss  aversion. But I definitely will go on a tangent with that one. So let's just say that for the

[JAMES]: 19:34

most part, right, I'm supposed to be reigning you in, not ramping you up.

[COBY]: 19:38

Yeah. So. So for the most part the status quo bias is really just more about. It's the idea  of. It's. They're more likely to protect what they have regardless of how good it is because  the fear of change or the fear of discomfort, has honestly has them self sabotaging because they,  they would rather protect what they have, than risk any other outcome. Because even  as, you know, even as bad as it is, it's something that they're familiar with. So, so again, and oh,  it's comfort with the familiar. It is like, I mean, like, like this is something that  can actually go as deep as to people justifying, like abusive situations all the way up to people  just not wanting to, you know, not wanting to use a different mug. Like, I mean, like,  like, like the depth of, of, of, of how severe and how, how like impactful this can be is,  is pretty broad. But I don't want to definitely dig into that piece. But the idea of this is one  of those things where we're kind of wired that way to kind of say we know this. The devil I  know is I'm familiar with. So this pattern I'm used to, whether I like it or not is  kind of irrelevant because I'm used to it. And that, and they cling to that familiarity piece.

[JAMES]: 20:51

Yeah. So I mean the direct line between kind of the status quo bias and  complacency is pretty clear. Right. We, we sit in what we are, what we know,  regardless of how good it is for us. And the longer we're there, the more quote unquote  comfortable we become and at some point that we trade comfort for complacency.

[COBY]: 21:12

Yeah. Right. So, another one I want to talk about is the normalcy bias.  And this is about assuming that the future or assuming what is happening will basically,  resemble what has happened in the past. So this is something that when we see market  trends happening, we don't respond appropriately because we're like, well, this will. This will.  This will fade. This. This will go away. Things will go back to normal. I mean, we saw this with  COVID from a workforce perspective is that, you know, like, oh, there's all these people that  want work to look differently after they've had a chance to work from home. Well, don't worry about  it. Everyone's going to forget about that and it'll go back to the way it was and it didn't.

[JAMES]: 21:58

Covid was a catalyst for a lot of changes.

[COBY]: 22:01

Exactly. But I mean, it's the idea of like, oh, this, you know,  this shift in the market is something that will be. It's a, It's a flash in the pan.

[JAMES]: 22:10

so it's a trend or a blip, and we will eventually get back to what we're. What we know,  what we're comfortable with, and we're going to. I mean, and that's why I think I'm going to go  off on a tangent now. I think this is why so many organizations lost so much credibility with their  employees. Kind of post pandemic, however you want to define that, whenever you want to define that,  as they try to really force that normalcy of. Well, now it's 2021 and the, the. Or 2022 and the  height of the emergency is over. So we're going to push everybody back into the office full time.

[COBY]: 22:50

Right.

[JAMES]: 22:50

All right. We're still seeing that, you know, they're still constantly coming out  with more return to work, or return to office mandates. But that. I've always  seen that as a futile attempt to return to a past that does not exist anymore.

[COBY]: 23:07

Yeah, you're right. And that's 100. The kind of. The. A lot of what  the normalcy bias can create. Because the other part of it too is like when,  like when companies are really slow to respond to, react to emerging things like AI is a good  example or other technological pieces, or they're like, well, this always worked for us  and it'll always work for us again. The future is going to be just the same as the past. And  that's when we see legacy companies that don't. Blockbuster and, Netflix. You know what I mean?

[JAMES]: 23:43

That idea, this Internet things are flashing the pan. Need to adapt to that.

[COBY]: 23:48

Yeah, everyone's always, always going to want to come into brick and mortar stores  to rent movies. I mean, like, you know, those types of that. Again,  that. That's part of the normalcy bias. So the last one I want to talk about is. And  you. You and I have got into this one a number of times, but in the past is the sunk cost fallacy.

[JAMES]: 24:04

Oh, my word, yes. Yeah.

[COBY]: 24:05

Sticking with the old systems because we've invested too much or you know, like,  you know, like we've. It's the idea of throwing good money after bad because  we've tried something. We're used to this thing, let's just keep paying for it,  let's just keep thr money at it. because it's easier to do that mentally than actually to go  through the change of switching over or trying something different or anything else like that.

[JAMES]: 24:29

Phoenix Pay system, anyone? sorry, shouldn't take digs at, Of course I'll take  it digs at the government. The sunk cost fallacy is so fascinating to me because we see this so  often in our work and in our conversations. Yeah. early stages when we are meeting with prospective  clients or when we're having, kind of high level discussions and conversations and oftentimes  when we are in, you know, towards the end of our initial investigations and we're kind of  identifying where the company needs to go next, where they are, what their goals are and  how we're going to align those. There's so many times that we have to have the conversation of,  okay, I know that you've already invested in this particular program or this particular  software or this particular initiative, that you think is the be all and end all, but it's  doing more harm than good because it wasn't implemented properly. There wasn't a strategy  developed properly. It doesn't align operational and people strategies. And it's just at this point  you are throwing good money after bad. I don't know how many times we have used that phrase.  yeah, I see it so often from an organizational perspective and from an outsider looking at this,  you see these things with a level of clarity and just shake your head because the data is showing  us that this is not working, that you have been spending money, time, energy, resources to do  something that is not getting the effect that you want and yet you're unwilling to say, okay,  this was a mistake, let's try something else.[COBY]: Yeah. And the other side of this on cost  fallacies is kind of the other end of it where we've never invested in this, so we, so we don't feel we should have to.

[COBY]: 26:33

Right. And that's one of the things that we've often talked about  where companies that are struggling with massive problems like turnover or, or problems with,  around like a really inefficient pieces or A lot of mistakes happening and we're like,  well you really should be investing in training your middle managers. Like, well, we've never  invested in them in the past, so why would we do that now? Or like, or like, you know, again, like  we're, we're. Oh, we've never, we've never had to do that. Like no, you. Well, you should have.

[JAMES]: 26:58

And we've gotten by fine without it. Well, if you're fine,  then why, then why are. Is X, Y and Z costing you all of this money?

[COBY]: 27:07

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So part of it is, ah, that too is that it's it all of  that kind of fits into the sunk cost fallacy. So those are some of the biases again that fuel the  over comfort, that fuel the complacency that, that kind of like we have to get past. If you  want to actually start to again address some of the some of again some of the pieces that  are part of that double edged sword. Because the thing is that, is that there is a bit of like a  It is very paradoxical, the comfort zone piece because again, going back to kind of  what we talked about earlier on is that if we have too little comfort, it creates anxiety,  it creates burnout. It kind of makes us feel like almost like paralyzed in kind of, in kind of the,  the work that we do again, that sympathetic nervous system, fight or flight. I don't  feel safe. it's really hard to kind of like, you know, my cognitive load is so heavy. Everything  else like that too. But if there's too much comfort, if we, if we've built into complacency,  then we become stagnant. We have all these massive blind spots often caused by these, these.

[JAMES]: 28:10

It kills innovation,  it kills productivity, it kills new ideas, it kills change management.

[COBY]: 28:16

Yeah, well, but it makes us, our organizations, so fragile.

[JAMES]: 28:20

Yeah.

[COBY]: 28:21

So easy.

[JAMES]: 28:22

You know, you're right. I mean that's. Fragile is such a good way to frame this because  there's fragility on either end of the comfort spectrum. Too little comfort is a unsustainable,  fragile place for an organization to be. Too much comfort. When we get into this high levels  of complacency and we end up building this culture of complacency is a very fragile and  dangerous place for an organization to be. It's that middle section here's Part of the problem  is that there's no one single at this point. It transitions from comfort to complacency. Yeah,  right there. This is something that needs to be managed, that needs to be evaluated, that needs  to be measured to some degree. Right. There's, there's a level of. It's more art than science,  from a leadership perspective in kind of how do you manage an appropriate level of  comfort? And it's really going to come down in many situations to the nature  of the work that you're doing and how well you actually know your teams. A big part of this,  if you're in a larger corporate structure or multiple if you have multiple layers  of authority within your organization and you may not as a leader may not have much  influence or not influence you to have a lot of influence, but maybe not a lot of  day to day impact or like being directly involved or overseeing the day to day or the front line.  This is where empowering your managers and training them and supporting them and autonomy  within your leadership structures can really help to mitigate some of these risks and have pieces  that flow up together to kind of make sure that you're not leaning one too far one way or another.

[COBY]: 30:26

Yeah. And because I mean like the thing is that when it comes to kind of again the,  the downside, the, the complacency side pieces of, of comfort, it's, it is something that you know,  if, if your leaders are not kind of scanning the environment, they're not looking for kind  of what's come, what's coming. They're not, you know, are our people are becoming too,  again, are kind of becoming too reactive, or they're getting defensive of anything  new. But the one piece that I think is good for us to kind of really kind of,  I think settle this idea of what you just talked about. And then what I was talking about with some  of the biases is I think if there was a bit of a canary in the coal mine. It's not like I say,  like I say it isn't a flick, a switch and it's one or the other. It is an art. But I think like  I said, canary in the coal mine might be when good enough becomes the cultural ceiling. Yeah.

[JAMES]: 31:33

Okay. So the kind of, the idea that you know what we're, we're, our processes are  good enough. We don't, we don't need to keep pushing because we're doing good enough. Our,  yeah, the good, the good enough language is interesting because I don't actually hear it  expressed that way from leaders often. I rarely hear anybody actually say we're doing good enough.

[COBY]: 31:58

No. Well, everyone knows that. That's, that's a dangerous statement. Right.

[JAMES]: 32:04

Yeah, I, I mean with, and this is where the disconnect between language and  action, it really tells the story. Right, which is why we definitely trust the information that  people give us. But we actually, we have to go through our investigations and ah,  to actually get the, the real data because data doesn't lie. right. People can overestimate the  information they're giving us. And so this idea of good enough often comes out in the way in which  organizations support their managers in how they support their the factors of the workplace. The  you know, are, have things been kind of stagnating for a while? Have we done anything new to support  wellness or safety or consistency? Are we constantly, do we have a, a culture of continuous  learning and continually trying to improve and be better and seeking that input? Or are we  just kind of comfortable and leaning on the fact that we've been successful in the past and what  we've done previously has worked. So let's keep doing more of that and forget everything else.

[COBY]: 33:23

Well, and some of it too I think some of the things that we see because you're right,  we don't see that we don't hear the language of good enough. But what we do hear is more along the  lines of, you know, almost like over certainty in someone's perspective or someone's knowledge base  that they again there's that sense of, of they acknowledge they don't know what they don't know  but they're certain that they know enough. You know what I mean? Those kind of pieces.

[JAMES]: 33:52

Yeah, no, I, I, I, I'm laughing because yeah,  we've encountered that many times of you know, yeah, they, they recognize that there are gaps  in their knowledge but they don't seek out ways to fill those gaps in knowledge.

[COBY]: 34:11

Yeah, exactly. So because like, because I think that if we were to kind of say what does  looking at like what, what you know, in broad strokes, what does balancing the double edged  sword look like? And we've, where, where we've seen the most success in kind of finding that  balance between the, between, between the, both sides of comfort. Right. Is usually when healthy  organizations are prioritizing curiosity. Yes, right, because, because again curiosity,  we talked about this in previous podcasts, is kind of the, it's kind of the counter to certain,  to over certainty. But I mean curiosity is kind of that space between where there's you know, people  aren't bored but they're also not overwhelmed. They are, they know what they know, but they're  open to learning more and open to being challenged a little bit more. Because curiosity kind of comes  with a. I'm never gonna, I'm not fully willing to settle because, because I've got stuff that  I want to learn more about. And that's really kind of like if you had to boil everything down to kind  of balancing that comfort zone paradox. As I mentioned earlier, I think curiosity  is kind of what we need to prioritize. And I think that's probably where curiosity is a...

[JAMES]: 35:20

It's a good one. And it. What came up for me as you were talking is I haven't heard  about it in. I don't know if they still do, but I remember in the early years, of Google, you know,  they intentionally set time aside through the day for their employees to be curious,  to explore their interests, to give them paid time where they  were able to pursue their own projects and that level to indulge in curiosity.

[COBY]: 35:54

Right.

[JAMES]: 35:55

And that led to massive, massive market improvements for  Google. That's where Gmail came from and many other kind of core staples  of the company. Now I don't know if they still do that. I haven't heard about it  for ages. I doubt it. As they've become more corporate and less tech startupy.

[COBY]: 36:17

Yeah, but, but I mean even the way that like when we are working with different leadership  teams and different management teams, even kind of some of the way that we, we try to like encourage  people to kind of ask questions like I know, like, I know we've had I've had a number of  examples where I've been recepting organizations kind of like, like facilitated meetings and  someone like you know, like will often will have a first kind of question kind of kind of come out  and then they'll stop themselves. And I always encourage people just to ask the question and,  and you know, and I really kind of like kind of doing the what ifs or kind of like again,  if there's some of that like you know, again back to the improv is like yes and right. You know,  like yes, that's a good idea. But. And what if we looked at it from this perspective and  challenging those pieces too can be little small ways that we can encourage curiosity,  curious conversations in kind of the small everyday little ways that we engage with people  can be just part of how we are slowly trying to embed curiosity, to kind of manage that,  manage complacency, but also kind of build a bit, a bit of the psychological safety,  element into it as well. But yeah, I do think that again, broad strokes. So again,  I think we should move into Kind of like how do we find that right balance? What's some practical  advice that we can give folks? But I do think that again broad strokes, I think it is curiosity that  I think will be one of the major kind of anchor points of any advice that we give going forward.

[JAMES]: 37:42

Yeah. So let's break it down from kind of different perspectives. because there's,  there's different levels of responsibility in kind of making sure that comfort without complacency  exists or how do we, once we are in that comfort zone how do we create a safe or a low risk way of  pushing people out of that or making sure that we don't fall into the trap. And for leaders I think  one of the first things I would talk about is looking for, paradoxically I'm going to call it,  we'll call it safe discomfort. Right. What are small ways that we can create supported challenges  that stretch people without overwhelming them? This, I mean we've talked about this in different  contexts before but cross training is actually a way of doing, accomplishing this in a relatively  low risk, relatively safe environment. to push people out of their comfort zone. now there has  to be an accompanying culture where it's actually safe to fail and you've got the psychological  safety to be able to do that. But this is a key I think a really tangible, easy way for leaders to  avoid the complacency trap because it has the added benefit of also building organizational  resilience. as people are exposed to other roles, other opportunities, other perspectives  than just the, their own within the context of their work. And it can create, it has a lot of  kind of secondary and tertiary benefits around if you understand how your role influences and  impacts other roles around you, you're more likely to be open to other people's perspectives and to  their and to be open to collaboration with them more. it also, if you have people who have some  cross trained skills in different areas different, it gives you the opportunity to backfill or to  support or if there's big projects come down that you need to mobilize additional resources, you  kind of have that baked into your organization and it can be done in a way that even if somebody's  not entirely successful in the cross training, the activity of it, the exposure to the rest of  the organization and is a net benefit. So when you are developing kind of these cross training tools,  make sure that you're understanding what success looks like. And is it just a proficiency of skill  or is it an exposure to the broader organization, team collaboration and the breakdown of silos.

[COBY]: 40:54

Yeah, absolutely. No, but I do think you're right. I do like this. The idea is a weird,  weird term. You're right. Safe discomfort. But I do think that that is one of those things that we  can, we can allow for that because like kind of like I said, you know, pushing people in  conversation to be a bit more curious and kind of ask more difficult questions can be, can be part  of that too. but you know, I think you're right as far as a tangible net benefit, regardless of  how successful it is, cross training is probably an absolute win. And we talked about that in our  last episode about. But doing more with less. So I think that's a good callback to that as well. the  other thing I want to kind of mention for leaders to kind of look at too is it's sort of similar  but say normalizing like, like really small, like almost like micro risks. Like, like try to like do  some like the beta testing concept that you and I embed to organizations. You know, like hey, we're  gonna, we're gonna, we've got something new that we want to do. So we're gonna, we're gonna, we're  gonna pilot something for, you know, for 30 days just, just to see if it works. And you know,  again it's about, about building a plan and a strategy that, that, that's going to be, you know,  a net benefit. I mean we, we talk about the ideas of maximum utility, you know,  that, the idea that if, you know, we're going to improve, we're gonna, we're gonna try to look at  improving on our, our onboarding. We're gonna use a different, a different methodology for  that. We're gonna, you know, something that we've got a bunch of teams. We mean team. We've been a  bunch of new staff starting, so there's like six of them starting. So we're going to try  all six of them on this new method just to see if we can find improvements. And you know, so,  so it's about you know, setting the parameters and putting it in place, but also just trying  it out. And if it doesn't really work or not all of it works, then it's a matter of kind of like,  you know, balancing that with, with what worked from the old method. So there are these little  things that we can kind of do to allow people to try a few new things for a short amount of time.  Again it's like, you know, micro risks type piece can Be a way that we can allow for just again  something that's going to allow people to stretch themselves a little bit. But also the idea of  you know, just looking for little ways to kind of find small continuous improvement strategies.

[JAMES]: 43:01

Yeah. And I just want to reinforce that these are things that I won't say that they only  work, but they certainly work far more effectively in an environment that has psychological safety.

[COBY]: 43:16

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 43:17

Because that ability to try something new and to be, to not necessarily have it work out and  for that to not impact your like when there's a fear that, well, if I, if I try this new thing or  if this new cross training or this new onboarding system, if it doesn't work out, what happens to  my job, am I going to be penalized for that? Am I going to be. Because I mean this is. The lack  of psychological safety kills innovation because people are afraid to take risks.

[COBY]: 43:49

Right. So yeah. The other thing too is add  on to that is also make the why you're doing it clear.

[JAMES]: 43:54

Yes.

[COBY]: 43:55

You're not just being like, hey, double your workload for fun, you know, like

[JAMES]: 44:00

for fun. Yeah, absolutely.

[COBY]: 44:03

Right. Like, I mean again, part of it is again,  this needs to be well communicated. This needs to be something that people are not  being like it really can't come out of nowhere. You have again,  part of good change management is tell people on the why before any change happens. Get people on  board with it before you do it. Have a good plan in place so people know what's expected, make it  predictable. All those good change management strategies need to be involved in this. Right.

[JAMES]: 44:26

So you also need to be willing to let it go if it doesn't work.

[COBY]: 44:29

Work.

[JAMES]: 44:29

Right. This is like don't fall into that sunk cost fallacy.

[COBY]: 44:33

Right. Well and these are, and these are the benefit of like the micro risks. Right. These  are like, you know, we're going to try this micro risking thing as a micro risk and if it doesn't,

[JAMES]: 44:40

and we recognize that it might not work. So yeah, we're,  we're operating under the assumption that it will and we are working towards success.  But we understand that whenever we try something new, it may not work the way that we want it to.

[COBY]: 44:53

Yeah. All right. So for you as the individual listening to this, if you're like,  okay, how can I give myself a little bit more of that curiosity piece? How can I try and balance,  find that balance of the double edged sword that is comfort? I think that I've got two  little pieces of advice that might be helpful. So one of them is to kind of like set almost  like a personal challenge or like a, like what's referred to sometimes as like a stretch goal,  kind of like for yourself, maybe like, you know, a quarterly thing or a monthly thing,  depending on how big it is. Like give yourself something that you want to try to learn new,  accomplish, try out that's within your complete authority.

[JAMES]: 45:33

And maybe this is where the curiosity angle really comes into play from an individual  perspective. What are you curious about? What is, what is something that like from within  your work context? what would you like to explore a little bit further? Right,  There's a gap that you think there you might be. Want to try to, to understand better.

[COBY]: 45:54

Right? Yeah. I mean like sometimes it can be simple as if you've got the,  the budgetary ability to do it. Like, you know, do less virtual meetings to try and  do more personal means with people. So you're even just kind of pushing yourself to, you know, like,  be kind of get yourself out of kind of the, the everyday kind of confinements of your workspace  into a different workspace that could be a very small, like, again, like, like small additional  thing that you might want to do those types of things to kind of like just break a bit,  a bit of the status quo. So you're not falling into the status quo, bias, but also just again,  try something that's going to push you a little bit further. And the second thing I would suggest,  which is kind of dovetails that nicely is my favorite topic of all time, which is critical  thinking, which is reflect on what you're actually avoiding. What is it the stuff,  what is the stuff that you put walls up or what kind of like gets, gets you, like the stuff that  you do not want to do and figure out why is that? For example, if you're like most millennials and  younger, you don't like talking on the phone. So what, so why is that? What could you try,  could you try to improve your phone skills? Like, you know, those types of, those types of little  things like that could be just small little pieces that we have with our, within our own control to  be able to kind of push ourselves a little bit, to try to break up our own dependence, on comfort.

[JAMES]: 47:10

Yeah, I laugh about the, the phone thing because I hate talking on the phone.  I'd rather text or shoot off an email or. But at some point, like, there's no replacement for  having an actual conversation because text, it just doesn't cut it with, tone sometimes.

[COBY]: 47:32

Yeah, but yeah, so part of those reflect on, you know,  why is it that you avoided. Is it because you're not used to doing it or. Yeah, but yeah, anyway.

[JAMES]: 47:38

Yeah, well, I just wanted to jump on kind of last point around what can organizations do?  and I think this really where I would like to start is really kind of doubling down on the,  the cross functional projects. it's a, it's a really. This could, this could incorporate part  of your cross training. that can be built into this strategy as well. But, but the more that you  get people to work with others, to work with other departments or work with people who they have not  necessarily worked with in the past, it has a lot of, it has a number of benefits. It has the, the  ability to break down silos in our organizations and we've, we've done an entire actually a two  parter on the difference between silos and strongholds. And it, the more that we can  expose people to new ideas, the more that we can expose people to the how the broader organization  functions and the realities of other people's roles, the more we're able to get. It has the  added benefit of also sparking conversation and innovation as people with different perspectives  are brought together to achieve a common goal. As those perspectives start discussing opportunities  and ideas, really cool things can happen. So cross functional projects is a great way to  kind of make sure that you're not keeping some of the comfort without the complacency lens.

[COBY]: 49:26

Yeah. One of the things that we often recommend to help organizations try and achieve  that better is some of your specialist teams like, like HR tech, even engineering. Some of  those just try and like make a bit of a mechanism in place where they actually can function almost  like internal consultants to other departments can be one of the ways that you can actually start to  create those cross functional pieces where you got one, one department almost like consulting with  for another one on pieces can be one way that you can, you can have almost like operationalize that.

[JAMES]: 49:57

Yeah. And that, that's a really cool piece that we've started to see some interesting  conversations come as a direct result of that.

[COBY]: 50:05

Yeah, absolutely. so the next one I want to mention for organizations is about  measuring adaptability as a performance metric. So we're looking at your operational or your  individual KPIs that's attached to your job descriptions and your performance evaluations  actually have adaptability be something that you're stating is important to our  organizations according to the roles and actually making it something that  you are measuring and something that you are tracking data on and that you Are actually,  tying to performance success. Because if it's important, measure it. Right.

[JAMES]: 50:41

Yeah.

[COBY]: 50:41

We.

[JAMES]: 50:42

We measure what matters. And what matters needs measurements.

[COBY]: 50:46

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 50:48

the last thing I think, that we can, if we kind of tie a bow around this,  is the idea of celebrating your course correction. Ah. Not just when things go absolutely perfectly  and we have this major success. Yes. We want to celebrate those. Absolutely.  But again, in this culture of psychological safety, being able to celebrate that idea that we,  maybe we didn't do everything right, but we learned a lot and we avoided a negative  outcome because people gave us the feedback that we needed to know that this thing that  we just tried wasn't working the way that we intended it to. So we had to course correct.  Right. That is not a negative. No plan. what's the. I'm gonna butcher the expression,  but there, you know, no plan survives the first bullet or the first charge or the first, like.

[COBY]: 51:48

Well, the Mike Tyson. That's something like, your plan, you know,  you have a plan to get punched in the face or something like that.

[JAMES]: 51:55

Yeah. I mean, it's essentially all saying the same thing, right?

[COBY]: 51:58

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 51:58

You can only. A plan only lasts until it begins to be implemented,  and then things have to change. If you rigidly adhere to a plan without course corrections,  your likelihood of failure is significantly higher.

[COBY]: 52:12

Well, I mean, one of the things too, is celebrating breaking  old habits like sunken cost fallacy, breaking those dangerous, complacent,  patterns should be something that should be celebrated as much as. Because those  are successes, you've stopped doing the thing that was hurting you. And you know what I mean,

[JAMES]: 52:31

I've stopped punching myself in the face.

[COBY]: 52:33

Yeah. So I do think that, again, those things to support leaders and employer employees  and organizations can be practical things that people might be able to kind of look at within,  again, their own scope with their own focus. But again, I do think that at the end of the day,  the one real takeaway piece is how do we find that balance really is going  to be that it is a, curiosity piece. Right. I do think that it's a matter of, shedding certainty,  trying to avoid those psychological fallacies and biases about and trying to find ways to leverage  the benefits of psychological safety and stability while also being curious and critically reflective  and trying to look for more ways to improve how people work together and learn from each other.  All of those are going to be how we start to really kind of find that balance and  how we can make sure that comfort is, you know, is making us more productive and not  more complacent. So that about does it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access  to video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit Roman.3ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us.

[ANNOUNCER]: 53:42

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