Why Do Leaders Feel Isolated?

This episode touches on the theme of Developing Leaders.

In this episode, we explore the old expression "It's lonely at the top". We dig into “leadership loneliness” and “executive burnout” and how leaders, managers, executives, and entrepreneurs can create support systems and connected resilience to combat isolation.

Our prescription for this episode is to identify the people in your network who can fill parts of The Gr8, and focus more on relationship management than transactional interactions.

Past Episode Referenced:
S4 E7: Leadership Tips: Communication, Transforming Behavior, Bringing Solutions

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About Our Hosts!
James is an experienced business coach with a specialization in HR management and talent attraction and retention. 

Coby is a skilled educator and has an extensive background in building workforce and organizational capacity. 

For a little more on our ideas and concepts, check out our Knowledge Suite or our YouTube Channel, Solutions Explained by Roman 3.

Transcript

[ANNOUNCER]: 0:00

Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness,  not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.

[COBY]: 0:10

Did we lose a patient?

[JAMES]: 0:12

No, that's just my lunch.

[COBY]: 0:14

Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby,  he's James. And let's get started with a question. Why do leaders feel isolated?

[JAMES]: 0:28

Well, I mean, the short answer tends to come back to the old phrase that, it's lonely  at the top. Right. Leaders. Leaders we've worked with often feel that isolation because they have  just a large and diverse set of responsibilities. And it's not always appropriate to kind of share  their. Those burdens or those responsibilities or the anxieties that come with those  responsibilities with your staff or your team. Right. Like, it's the issues that they're dealing  with by necessity, almost kind of isolate them because it's one of those burdens of leadership  that you. One of your responsibilities is to shield your team from the uncertainties that may  be coming at them. I mean, I mean, there's always that balance of transparency, but by and large,  that's one of the key contributors. Right. this entire issue of it being only at the top is why  in so much of our work, we like to partner with really effective leadership coaches. You know,  somebody who can work on building the individual capacity of leadership teams, who can act as a bit  of a support system. System to the, to the leaders while we, you know, do our investigation, you  know, our. Develop resources, tools and, you know, do some operational restructuring for stability.

[COBY]: 2:02

Yeah. And I mean, like, what's, what's interesting is when we talk about  it being lonely at the top sometimes, you know, we often work closely with like, the executive team,  the C suite, those types of things. Right. When we're working with the leadership coaches and  stuff like that, that's kind of who they're focused on. But there's even a flavor of this  that exists at the middle management as well. Because it's when there's isolation in the middle  management team where they are not seen as a team themselves. They're. They're all off in their own  things. Like, especially when you have a lot of like, you know, like site managers and stuff  like that, that they're the, they're the leader of their, kind of like of their site, but they  have no one they talk to. They don't really know the other site manager. So they're kind of like,  you know, on their own isolation pieces. And you're right. That's why when we work with  leadership coaches, like, we should, like I mean, like, we work closely with a great coach, Jody,  Bach, who is excellent at kind of building these kind of like, you know, like, team,  dynamics when it comes to kind of the different kind of leadership kind of levels and the C suite,  stuff like that. Because it's. Because one of the things that we go into is sometimes those  teams are not teams. They're just individual collection of individuals. Right. And so one  of the, like, lowest hanging fruit when you're trying to rebuild organizational,  like, resilience and strength and stability is to remove this isolation of leaders.  that's kind of. That doesn't need to be there by just connecting them to each other.

[JAMES]: 3:42

Yeah.

[COBY]: 3:42

And it's a powerful thing that what. That kind of like, connected, you know, like,  ability to. For leaders to have someone that they can understand what they're going through,  having a peer to talk to is powerful. And it's something that, you know, again, like,  we. When we work with organizations that are experiencing different degrees of instability  or they're dealing with kind of like, whatever the kind of challenges that we're brought in to kind  of help with. One of the, like, most effective things that we do very, very early on is just  connecting those people that are just. That have no reason to not to be connected and building  some kind of, like, team dynamic and that kind of. And that kind of connection amongst peers.

[JAMES]: 4:23

Yeah. Builds a bit of a support system. I want to jump in or, jump.  follow up on what you mentioned around middle managers, because I think that does get missed  often when we. When we talk about leadership and isolation and loneliness. I mean, the majority  of our conversation will focus on kind of the. The executive level. But you did bring up a good point  there because this also happens, when there's a lack of psychological safety. Right. If. Because  it feels like you're almost squished between two, you know, it's a rock and a hard place. You've got  your team that you can't. That you're responsible for. And again, it's often not appropriate to  share all of those insecurities that are going on, because that doesn't really help with team  performance and morale. But at the same time, if you don't feel that you have a leader yourself  who you can go to, who is responsive and able to coach you through these things. You know,  if you have that feeling that. Well, if I show any type of, like, the idea that, a question  having questions is weakness or not having all the answers is a form of weakness, so I. That's that  dynamic I think is really important to understand and that is a tough place for those middle level  managers to find themselves. And I think what we are talking about here, in this episode will be  very valuable in that context as well as the more traditional leadership, executive level context.

[COBY]: 6:06

Yeah. And so again like focusing on, on the, why do leaders feel isolated? I think,  I think this sense of like you say, they're, they're start working their rock and higher  place. They have people that report to them that they can't. Kind of like it isn't a safe place  to have a real conversation sometimes. Right. And if they have manager or if they have their  supervisor or whether it's their, their board or whether it's there, if they're in municipal realm,  their municipal council or whatever it is, are not people that they can show weakness around. Right.

[JAMES]: 6:39

Yeah.

[COBY]: 6:40

so then it does put them in this, between a rock and a hard place. but I mean  the thing too is that sometimes early on in careers people like, well no, this, you know,  there has to be a solution for this. I need to, I'm a verbal processor. I need to talk  this stuff out. And maybe they have reached out to somebody in their personal life or they did  reach out or they did bring a confidant on someone that they report to or who reports  to them and they got burnt and they're like, hey, never again am I talking to anybody. I'll  just carry this mountain on my shoulders alone forever. Because I'm not getting, and you don't.

[JAMES]: 7:16

Even need to necessarily get burned to get like, I mean I, I, I've spent a lot of time  coaching small business owners and one of the, like there's an isolation there as well because,  and not only do you not have your team that you can necessarily confide in,  you also don't necessarily have anybody above you or supporting you who you can confide in.

[COBY]: 7:41

Right.

[JAMES]: 7:41

But also, you oftentimes like family doesn't quite fit that role. They may be  extremely supportive of what you're doing and want you to succeed and want to be a support,  piece for you, but may not understand what it is that you're going through if they've never  gone through it themselves. Right. Like I think like even in our own business,  like my wife is the most supportive of what we are doing. Ah. And behind it 100%.

[COBY]: 8:14

Right.

[JAMES]: 8:14

But when I start talking about what we actually do,  her eyes glaze over. Right. Like it's, I find it interesting because I'm a nerd.

[COBY]: 8:22

Right.

[JAMES]: 8:22

but. Right. Like, but it's. And it's no reflection on anything other than incredibly  supportive but different interests. Right. And not necessarily knowing those. I mean, there's lots of  reasons why it feels isolating when you are in these leadership roles or as a business owner.

[COBY]: 8:41

Yeah. No, and you're right. I think that that's a really important point. I think that we  shouldn't lose this. That business owners have this very much isolation piece too. And because  you're right, like, sometimes it's a matter of like, I know how to handle a lot of things,  but I just want someone that gets me and gets how great this cool thing that happened is.

[JAMES]: 9:04

And I go, yes, cool.

[COBY]: 9:06

Right.

[JAMES]: 9:07

Or understands how frustrating some things can be. Like somebody who  you can. Like just the ability. If you haven't noticed, this podcast is one way  that I vent. But having that mechanism. Right. Having the ability to talk things  out and from a business owner to be able to vent about things that are frustrating you,  or to. But not just talking to a wall. Right. To have somebody who kind of gets it.

[COBY]: 9:35

Well, and I mean the thing too. I mean, let's, let's talk about kind of the embarrassment  of riches that you and I possess, in the fact that you and I formed Roman 3 together and we have each  other and we. And we work with, we partner with a lot of other entrepreneurs and again,  people in this ecosystem that we work in that are. That are. That are running it  solo or they're leading. They're leading their own teams. But they're the. But they're the only  one at the top. And they are. They've. Many of them commented how jealous they are that you and  I have each other because. And again, we create a very unique business that does really weird  but cool stuff that, you know, we take big swings. And the reason why we're still here,  why we're still successful is because. Largely because we have each other. Yeah. I mean,  so we are speaking from. Stuff is different when you have someone to talk to, when you are  not isolated, when you have this con. the term that we like to use is connected resilience.

[JAMES]: 10:38

Yeah.

[COBY]: 10:39

That somebody gets you. Someone that can provide, you know, support where you need it,  someone that you can just geek out with, someone that can hold you accountable. All those other  kind of pieces, whether it's. Again, it being one person is a unicorn. And I think that's. I  think where we're going to go is the problem is a lot of us try to find that One unicorn of who  we can talk to. Often it's. It's like a mentor or someone else like that too. And that can be tough  because most of the time it's, you know, you're not going to find that perfect person that can  be all things that you need. And maybe that's kind of where we want this kind of reflective,  kind of like this critical thinking that we want this conversation to evoke in people is going  to be around understanding that maybe it's about breaking down the different things that you need.  Because the one thing that is really important in leadership roles, again, you and I step into,  like, really complex environments and we see all kinds of different stuff. But the thing  that's really tough is finding that balance of vulnerability in your leadership roles.

[JAMES]: 11:41

Right.

[COBY]: 11:41

Whether you're an entrepreneur and you're trying to balance some vulnerability about,  just about trying to have someone to talk to and share things with. But, but also, like, you know,  those who, your staff who reports to you, you know, knowing what you can share with them,  knowing who you report to, whether it's the board or what the council or whatever it is,  knowing that you can talk to them. So this is going to be the thing that I want us to try and  like, help give some really practical steps to find that balance of vulnerability and to  benefit from this connected resilience that can be a game changer for people.

[JAMES]: 12:14

Yeah, the. The balance of vulnerability is an interesting question because there's no  clear line in the sand that's going to work for every situation. It is largely a judgment call,  and you're not going to make the right call 100 of the time. I, mean, we've. I've seen this  in my own work, of, you know, you mentioned it. When we step into organizations, we are  typically stepping into organizations that are in the midst of some sort of transition. Crisis.

[COBY]: 12:57

Chaos.

[JAMES]: 12:57

Chaos. Right. And that is very hard on people. And so, I mean, we, I mentioned it in one  of our, previous, episodes in the last, I don't know, couple months around. I tend to err on the  side of communicate early, communicate often, as a tool when I'm working with staff to try to  make sure that people are informed. And that is a really effective relational method. But that also,  that, that balance going down that route, you do run the risk of maybe potentially oversharing or  providing more information than necessary than people may actually need. And so I,  I don't want to say here's the rule that you use in every situation,  because I don't believe that exists. But I, I do think that it's a matter of understanding that  for many people withholding information, people will fill in the blanks themselves. Right.  And recognizing when a situation is going to be become worse if people start filling in the blanks  themselves. You probably need to start sharing bit more information. Yeah, right, like that.  That's kind of how I, I often try to balance these expectations around the communication side of it.

[COBY]: 14:24

Yeah, yeah. And you talked about that in I think our last Leadership Tips  episode. it is about finding that balance of vulnerability, knowing when you can share a  thought out loud and when you can actually get some, get some feedback that invoking  action or evoking anxiety can be, can be a tough thing, that we still make mistakes and  again we can't do this for a living. So. So everyone's going to make mistakes doing this.

[JAMES]: 14:44

Yeah. If I make a mistake, you're definitely.

[COBY]: 14:47

Going to make a mistake.

[JAMES]: 14:49

So it might just be time for me to be quiet and drink my coffee.

[COBY]: 14:54

But yeah, so, so I think that again, again, you and I have been working in this  kind of stuff for a long time. So what's cool is that going back pre Roman 3, when you know,  you were working with small businesses and I was working in workforce development,  I was doing some work around the kind of the psychology, around the organ psychology strategies  to build psychological capital and training resources to kind of help build more resilient  high functioning employees. And one of the concepts that you and I worked on together was a  concept of, that we called the great. Yeah, yeah. Now the great, so gr8 was we think we're clever.

[JAMES]: 15:44

we don't just think we're clever, we are clever.

[COBY]: 15:48

was this idea of saying, okay, the antidote for isolation, whether it is at  the top or whether it's at the management level or whether it's kind of again high functioning  employees or whatever it is is this concept that we talk about which is the connected  resilience. So to have connected resilience you need to have a support system behind you,  some people that you're connected to to give you strength. And the great was a concept that we  built that was like eight different roles in your support system that are a sum of parts.  When you have all those parts filled, that's what creates the connected resilience. And so  it's something that we talked about a lot when we were kind of pre Roman three days. And then  it's filtered into a lot of the work that we do when we're talking about kind of rebuilding team  infrastructure is kind of like looking at how can people feel that balance of vulnerability  by knowing who they can talk to about what. Because kind of the idea was that kind of,  like I said before is that you and I cover a lot of these different, kind of like eight different  aspects of the support system for each other. But, but that's a rarity. Usually it's more about one  or two people can fill like, or sorry, five or six people can fill one or two of these roles.  Yeah. Right. And that's a more robust, more, you know, a stronger, more diversified approach to  building a support system than trying to find that one unicorn that can be all things to you.

[JAMES]: 17:17

The reason why we are able to fill multiple ah,  roles within the Great isn't just. I mean we are incredible human beings.  But it's not just that element. Right. We've worked together for 20 years.

[COBY]: 17:31

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 17:32

Somebody can fill multiple roles within the great if there is that,  those shared experiences. Right. So it's not that this is a unique situation. It's  a product of the fact that we have worked together for far too long.

[COBY]: 17:48

Right. And we, in our career journey where we started off kind of,  you know, fresh out of school all the way till starting our own business together.

[JAMES]: 17:54

Very parallel.

[COBY]: 17:56

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 17:56

Trajectory.

[COBY]: 17:57

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. but, yeah, but, but this idea is that,  you know, if you have someone that has that kind of shared experience,  that's terrific. And what we're saying is the Great does not take away from that  wonderful situation. But that is the, that is not the, the reality for most people out there.

[JAMES]: 18:16

Most, it's not the norm. I just want to make sure that people know that this achievable.

[COBY]: 18:20

Yes, absolutely. but I mean, you know, but for most business owners, most managers,  most leaders, most executives, you know, there's. You're far better off to trying to find, you know,  multiple people that can fill one or two roles within the grade. So I think. So what I want  the rest of this conversation to kind of be about is us talking a little bit about some  of the elements of the Great. We're not going to be able to go through all e. We just don't  have the time. but let's, let's talk about some of the highlights from the Great because ideally too,  this is. Spoiler alert. we actually are working on developing the Great as a program that can  support entrepreneurs and kind of like, you know, and executives and even m. Middle level  managers in their, in their, in their career Growth about trying to build this kind of  connected resilience to make, to, to eliminate the isolation and to make it less lonely at the top.

[JAMES]: 19:12

Well, I mean, we see it in every organization that  we step into. Right. Like it is, it is per.

[COBY]: 19:16

Basis. Yeah, exactly. And it's something that we're like, we're like,  man, I wish we always say, man, I wish we had that developed already.

[JAMES]: 19:21

And it's like, oh, yeah, did this like 10 years ago and we just put it on a shelf.

[COBY]: 19:26

Yeah, yeah. So, so we're in the process of, of, of moving this off the shelf  and developing this, and we're excited about it, but it's something that we feel this is helpful to  share people now, because there's a lot I think that you can get from this conversation just by  hearing some of, some of these concepts. Again, this critical, reflective approach to you thinking  about what builds resilience in your own life will be, Will be a big part of how this may, this may  make some differences for you listening. so let's, let's talk about. So I got four of the. Four of  the eight here. and I want to talk a little bit about those and then we'll talk about kind of like  some of the, like, other side of the coin, some of the more challenging things that people avoid.

[JAMES]: 20:07

Yeah, let's just, just the people who are  not going to help you along this journey in any way, shape or form.

[COBY]: 20:15

Yeah. Now the way that we've structured. Sure.

[JAMES]: 20:17

You actually already know these people.

[COBY]: 20:18

Yes. Now the way we structured the great is we have these little, these little  cute little archetype names and then a bit of a definition. And then on the other side, we have,  the, the opposite of the great, or we call the Dirty Dozen. Guess how many of those are our.  that. That also have like, you know, these kind of like these fun little names and definitions. But,  but they're almost like the ones that if the great builds resilience, the,  The Dirty Dozen are what? Kind of like, kind of like hinder or take away your resilience.  But let's, let's start with the great. So the one that we talked about. So the first  one I want to talk about is the. Is kind of the one we said. How great is it when  someone understands what you do or has that shared knowledge and shared understanding?

[JAMES]: 21:01

So this is just as excited about what you're doing as you are.

[COBY]: 21:04

Yeah. So we call this, this role the Geek Squad. These are the people who share common  interests, common knowledge, common understanding of your of your work reality. Yeah. And these are  just those people that like, again, they're the colleagues that are in a similar field that,  like, if something really cool happens that your family and friends at home would not ever get,  they're the ones that get it and they go, oh my gosh, that's amazing. And, you can just like,  totally kind of geek out or dig into stuff. Like, we see this with hr, right? Like, again,  especially you, you, you have an HR background that when, when we go into an organization and  there's, and there's an HR professional there, they, they're usually alone and  they've been like, isolated for so long, but then they can talk to you. Oh my Lord.

[JAMES]: 21:48

There's somebody who gets it, who I can talk to.

[COBY]: 21:50

Yeah. Just like, they light up and they're like, oh man. Like, you know,  like, people make fun of me. They talk about SOPs and these kind of policy structures and  job. You're like, no, that's awesome. And so just those kind of like. Yeah,  you kind of light up when you talk about those, those geeky little things.

[JAMES]: 22:05

It's such a, it's such a simple thing. And I mean, I, don't think anybody's really going  to be that surprised as we go through the list. But what's so effective about the Geek Squad is  that they're not just rah, rah, everything is great. If they are people who have a shared,  knowledge, a shared understanding, and are interested in the same things that you're  interested in, they are an incredibly effective group for, validating or poking holes in new  ideas. Right. Who you can go to, who you, who respect, what you're doing, who understand your  perspective, who can give you feedback, who can get excited about the stuff that you get, are  getting excited about, but can also rein you in a little bit because we. Excitement is wonderful.

[COBY]: 22:51

Right.

[JAMES]: 22:51

But just excitement over an idea that has not been validated, I've seen far too many times.

[COBY]: 22:59

Right.

[JAMES]: 23:00

and it leads to, so having this Geek Squad, who gets it, who shares your  excitement and shares and you have that personal relationship with as part of your support network.  Such a great resource to both build you up, but also to keep you somewhat grounded and to  make sure that the ideas that you are so excited about are actually have some basis in reality.

[COBY]: 23:26

Yeah. So like, if you're, an entrepreneur and you, you know, again, you move to something  that's very, very niche, but, are there other people that work within that nature,  within or maybe within the kind of atmosphere of that Niche that get enough about what you're  trying to do that could actually, like, you could grab coffee with and just kind of talk  about stuff so you feel like someone else in the world understands what I'm doing. Right. Like,  it's even just those kind of things. Or if you're an executive, it's a matter of, you know, like,  maybe you rose through the ranks from maybe like the engineering department,  and you're working with a bunch of, you know, people that are great,  but they're. Maybe they come from finance. They kind of come from kind of the operational pieces,  or they kind of come from like, you know, hr, but they don't really get the engineering  piece. Can you go, is there someone there that you could actually like, you know,  almost like it's the engineering scratch, you know, stretch engineering. It's. Sorry. if you.

[JAMES]: 24:16

Yeah, it's, that scratch.

[COBY]: 24:18

Yeah. If, you know, if you can add to someone that you could just geek  out with. Right. And there's real value in. In that, Just that. That thing alone. Again,  maybe it's not about them necessarily having to reign you in or just like, having to kind  of poke holes with someone that you could just talk to and kind of like. Just like, you know,  like not have to try and filter everything, or you can use the jargon and vernacular and,  you know, the acronyms that you are always trying to not use because you want to make  sure that everyone gets you someone you can just do that with. Like. Right.

[JAMES]: 24:48

Yeah. I mean, this could be a mentor that you've worked with, somebody who gets it,  who understands, like, it. A peer. It could be, It could be a colleague. Ah. You know,  if you're in a, in a larger or in a corporate setting and you've got, you know,  colleagues who are at the same level who you can build those relationships, that can be really  effective because they can also understand the context, but it can also be somebody in  a completely different industry from you. All right? It's about finding your tribe, finding  your people.. Those people that you can just have some. You can. That you can geek out with. Right.

[COBY]: 25:26

It can be someone that reports to you or is a few levels below on the hierarchy of you,  but someone that gets it, that you're just, you know, not.

[JAMES]: 25:33

You're there as, with an appropriate context. Right. You're  not going to share everything with them. No, no.

[COBY]: 25:39

But you're only talking about that shared piece, right?

[JAMES]: 25:42

Yes. Yes. Right.

[COBY]: 25:43

Yeah. Okay, cool. So that's a great one. So if you can find, like,  I said find your tribe with that, then that, that can be a great thing to add towards collect this  collective resilience. The next one is what we call tour guides. Now these are people who can  help guide us through unfamiliar environments. So this is about people that actually have a lot  of the different knowledges and skill sets that we don't have. They're almost like the opposite  of the geek squad as far as like someone that can help you navigate a lot of things that you want to  do. A good example of this is, is if you're kind of a manager that's about kind of like customer  service delivery or you're, or you know, you lead like a front facing department or those kinds of  things like that too. And, but like you're, but you know, you might need to talk to someone that  can guide you through more the internal impact of that. Maybe it's about, it's like the finance.  The CFO can be someone that could say, okay, you know, I have a different skill so that you might  help you navigate all the financial ends towards this new project that you're working on. Right.  Someone that can guide you having different skill sets and different experiences. this is something  that you know, like, you know, maybe it's a matter of the someone that you have contact  who's part of government regulations that can kind of say, okay, cool, so you want to do this. Let's  figure out how you can get to where you want to get to. Right. So it's that kind of again,  someone that can give you the advice, point you in the right direction to help  you troubleshoot things that are going to be in your way that you may not know are coming.

[JAMES]: 27:16

And this was a role that I played a lot when I was doing the business, coaching,  when I was heavily involved in the, with small businesses.

[COBY]: 27:24

Right.

[JAMES]: 27:25

Because you may m. Not necessarily have somebody at your disposal or within your network  who you can talk about these things too. So it kind of became this, hey, I'm looking at,  you know, I want to start exporting to a new market, what do I need to know and kind of  work through that together and kind of be able to guide the person through what they need to be  considering, what we need to look at, how are we going to approach this, what's our market segment,  what's our entry method, you know, all of these different pieces in creating that pathway.  It doesn't always have to be somebody internal or somebody or a peer. Like you can find some  great external resources as well, yeah, part of it is finding that right fit,  that for the tour guide, having somebody who can guide you through that unfamiliar process of,  you know, maybe you want to take your business to the next level and you're  not sure how to grow or what the right pathway forward is. You know, this is where, you know,  business networking groups can actually be really effective. because, you know, building that  personal relationship with people who have done it before, who have walked the path that you are now  starting down is just such. I mean, I'm going to end up saying this for every single one of them,  but it's such a benefit to have somebody in your network who can provide, who can act in that role.

[COBY]: 29:01

Yeah. Well, one of the things that I often recommend to internal teams when we're  working with organizations is for people in the like, payroll department or people in like HR  to try to build some type of like, rapport or contact with somebody in government. So like,  so like payroll and finance, I usually try and get them to have someone that works for the,  like the revenue agency, whether it's the CRA or the irs, that they could actually contact  them directly instead of going through the main line. Same when we're dealing with like, you know,  because again, we're working with a number of organizations that are dealing a lot with like,  immigration. So dealing with people through the, through Immigration Canada and kind of saying,  you know, stop, don't go through the main chat,  trying to try and get a hold of a human and learn, learn the human's name and see if you  can get that person's contact and then talk to them. They're usually talk to them, reach out.

[JAMES]: 29:56

To them through LinkedIn, try to build some sort of rapport.

[COBY]: 29:59

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So the idea of trying to build that tour guide that can help  you through these unfamiliar territories because again, this isn't about, this is about just having  someone that, that knows parts of the stuff that you don't know and again, and about just who can  guide you in the right direction. They're not necessarily doing it for you, but they're the  ones that can just again point you, they can give you that a little bit of nudge in the  right direction or a piece of information that you didn't know about or how stuff really works  kind of behind the scenes, those kinds of little things. That's really what the tour guide can do,  whether that's a consultant, like you said, like, like you, whether that's someone that works for  government or regulatory bodies, whether that's someone that's internal or it can help you get a  guide stuff. But just who's going to be able to help you through this, These unfamiliar phases.

[JAMES]: 30:41

And granted, this does require you to know how to actually build a relationship  with other people. Right. Not, not just from a transactional standpoint,  but how do you build rapport? How do you build trust? Because it's when  you have rapport and trust that people are willing to actually do something for you. if  everything. If you approach everything from a transactional nature, then the,  the question is always, well, okay, if I do this for you, what are you going to do for me? Right,  right. So relationship is largely what we're talking about here. Rapport and trust.

[COBY]: 31:15

Yeah. Well, and that's a fundamental part of, of the great. But also building any  kind of support system is being able to kind of like relationship management maintenance is a big  part of this. It's about being. It's about being a human to another human and looking for, again,  that ability to make. Make. Make that connection. Right. That's really the problem. Yeah.

[JAMES]: 31:33

I just see far too much, in the discourse right now that focuses more on transactional.

[COBY]: 31:41

Well, here's the thing. Let's move on to another one that is a bit  more transactional, which is. Which is the one that we call the professionals.

[JAMES]: 31:48

Right.

[COBY]: 31:49

And this is just that. This is when you bring on someone to be depended  on to provide assistance, for specific purpose and to handle something for you.  This is like the example of this in your personal life is like, you know, when your sinks back up,  you call a plumber. They're the professional that you come in. You don't necessarily have  a personal relationship with them, but someone that you can. That, you know. Oh,  it's. I always get Jerry. Jerry's great. He does great work, you know.

[JAMES]: 32:17

Oh, man. Finding a trades person who you can trust and rely on. Huge asset.

[COBY]: 32:22

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 32:23

Same is true in your business.

[COBY]: 32:25

Absolutely. And that's just it. Like, I mean, the idea of there are again,  like great accountants, you know, having a really good account, having a really  good lawyer. Right. Having, again, a really good insurance broker, having a really good,  again, like financial manager or, personal, finance manager, those types of things. Like  having a good HR consultant. Again, all these kinds of things. Having a good leadership coach.  All of these things fall into the professional someone that you are you've done your homework  on. Maybe you've gotten a bit of a connection or a bit of referral from,  or you've asked people who is really good for these things. Need someone right now I'm not  in a crisis but who's someone that if I do get to be in a crisis who's someone that I can talk to?  Right. I mean in a self serving way that we fall under this with a lot of work that we do. A lot of  the advisor work that we do is you know, we are the professionals. When someone needs help kind  of navigating something or building or having a diagnostic being done, we'll go in and do that.

[JAMES]: 33:22

Operational stability growth, merger acquisition. Yeah, go in.

[COBY]: 33:26

We go in for a finite purpose and it's a very transactional relationship.  We go in to do the job. But it's not just. But the thing about the professional isn't  about anybody. It's about finding somebody that you know can rely on. Right. And you  can trust the quality of their work and doing that before you're in crisis mode. Because,  because when you, when you hire someone last minute when you're just looking for the  first plumber in the phone book because your basement's filling up, that's not the time.

[JAMES]: 33:54

Yeah. Well I think about my mechanic, right. I've been to a lot of different mechanics  over the years for my vehic have found a local mechanic who I trust implicitly. Who I can take  my vehicle to because I don't know squat about vehicles is not my expertise. I don't have the  context, I don't have the knowledge, I don't have the ability to do it myself. So finding  somebody in my personal life who can do that. I found somebody, I'm never letting them go.  Those same attributes, I'm looking for those attributes in people for my business who I bring  in around marketing because marketing is not my expertise. So find like it's, it's finding those,  it's not just finding someone. Right. it's finding someone who is reliable who you can trust. And yes  it's a transactional relationship to begin with but. And it will continue to be a transactional  relationship because they are a professional. They're probably, they may be running their own  business but you can still build a rapport and trust within that transactional nature.

[COBY]: 35:01

Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean like you know one of the things that we talk about when we work  with non profits is make sure you have a really good auditor. Someone. Right. So someone that,  someone that knows, that knows your organization knows the ins and outs of it. Someone that is  going to be able to smith things on time. All other kind of pieces like that too.  Right. So it is, It's. It's not necessarily just saying that, you know, well, you know,  your network is only people that you know personally and then. And that it really is  more about people that will actually help you achieve the things that you need to. That you  need to achieve. But like I say, it's finding someone you can trust. Find someone that you  respect the quality of their work and finding someone that you can rely on. And like I said,  the best time to do that is to do that before you need to. So if you want a homework from  this episode is ask your peers or your family or anyone that's kind of within your personal,  kind of personal life. Do you have someone that could fill in these roles for me and  do a bit of shopping around so that way you don't have to when you're in crisis mode?

[JAMES]: 35:57

Because the one thing you want to do after listening to a podcast is have homework.

[COBY]: 36:01

That's right. All right, so the last one of the great that I want  to talk about is what we call the Butt Kickers. Guess what?

[JAMES]: 36:07

They do.

[COBY]: 36:08

so people. These are people who motivate us and challenge us, to think beyond our  situation. Sometimes we like the Butt Kickers, and sometimes we don't like the Butt Kickers.

[JAMES]: 36:20

It's somebody who's able to hold us accountable as well. Having that  accountability partner, having that somebody, because it's. That's the other piece with,  in leadership roles is sometimes it's hard to find somebody who will hold you to account.

[COBY]: 36:39

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 36:40

In a professional way. I mean, if you set expectations with your staff. I mean, I have staff  who are more than happy to hold me accountable for things I've said. But that's different than  having somebody in my life who understands what I'm trying to accomplish or is willing to give  me that sometime. I mean, we all get into the. Into these, cycles of stuff gets messy.

[COBY]: 37:08

Right.

[JAMES]: 37:09

We all. And sometimes it's really hard to lift your head up above the muck  and realize that. Especially when you've been immersed in, conflict or immersed in,  stressful situations, sometimes it weighs on our physical and mental and emotional health.  And having somebody who can. I mean, for me, somebody who can kind of give me that little  kick in the rear end to say things aren't as bad as you are making them out to be,  or you need to snap, you need to get over yourself. And here's what you've said you're  going to do. Here's. And help kind of build that accountability can be really effective.

[COBY]: 37:53

Right. And the idea too is that it's, it's someone that can give almost like a, like a,  like a sober, independent, perspective on your situation. Right. There's value. Because you're  right. Sometimes we get so lost into it. The other thing too, though, sometimes we get trapped in our  own echo chamber. Right? Because again, sometimes if we surround ourselves with people that are  really supportive or we have a lot of really great people in our geek squad that think it's a great  idea, but we're just talking to, we're already speaking to the converted. We end up thinking  that there's more legs to an idea than we thought, or this is going to be easier than we thought.  And having someone that can again, pour some kind of like ice cold water on us when we think that,  we've got something really hot to work with. now, you and I, what we do is we actually  collect people that we call our red team. So a red team is a term for, it's a military term.  I can't think of what the actual definition of it is, but, but how we use it is we use it as  the people that will tear apart our idea or that will shatter our echo chamber. So when  we have something that we're really excited about that we think has some real legs to it. You know,  the problem with you and I being on the same page a lot is that we often don't challenge the.

[JAMES]: 39:10

We feed off of each other and things can get out of control fairly quickly, really quickly.

[COBY]: 39:17

So we have people that are, okay, let's share this with members of our red team. They can  tell us why this stuff won't work and tear apart the idea. But that's why a lot of our ideas get a  lot of legs. Because we, when we have a good idea, we frame it out, then we pass it off to have it be  completely annihilated. And then what remains from that is how we build up, build momentum.  Right. So there's a lot of value in someone that can again, motivate you, challenge you to think  beyond the situation, give you an alternative perspective, tear apart your ideas. Not in  a way that kicks you when you're down, but in a way that helps you be stronger. Like the idea of  like a good editor doesn't go, yeah, this sounds great. A good editor, if you're writing a book,  sends you back pages of red lines. Red lines, red lines. Because they see the value in what you're  doing, but they want you to make it better. And that's what A good butt kicker does too. Yeah.  So those four. So again, the geek squad, the tour guide, the butt kickers, and the professionals are  three or four. Sorry, four of the. Of the great. there's other ones, but we're not going to get.  We don't have time to get into those because I want to talk a little bit about some of the,  like, the dirty. Some of the dirty. Does that rob us of our resilience and rob us of kind of  our momentum and make us feel more isolated? so. Because, like, one thing that's really important  to know is that not everyone in your life will fail into, again, the different areas of the  great. Right. Some people in that you work with are going to end up being part of what, you know,  who you need, who you need to have resilience from a lot of ways. So let's just dig into those kind  of quickly. last little bit of the conversation. So one that we talk, we see all the time when we  go into organizations. It's funny because we see we, we use these labels again, which, you know.

[JAMES]: 41:04

We haven't created all of these labels. No.

[COBY]: 41:07

And we use these. And we use these labels kind of as shorthand for ourselves when we're.  When we're getting to know a team, trying to ident, you know, potential but, but also areas  of. Areas of risk and threat. so one of them is again, some of the. We make up a lot of these, but  the emotional vampires, people who believe that everyone else is responsible for making them feel  better, they're the ones that drain the life force out of you. And it's often about their. Their woes  are kind of what they share with you and feed off your energy, as, you know, in that way. And it can  be a really, really difficult thing when you have these emotional vampires that are just, you know,  making you as a leader, kind of like feel like you got to kind of carry their burden as well.

[JAMES]: 41:52

Yeah. And this can be both from a personal and from a professional standpoint.  There are people in our lives, in our workplaces, who are emotional vampires. If you, are a manager,  if you have worked with people, you've probably encountered an emotional vampire. Right. Somebody  who just sucks the life out of the room. and it's not that they are necessarily miserable  people themselves. It's that they tend to have a negative world view or a negative way that they.  A negative filter to how they see things. I guess it's just like an emotional black hole that sucks.

[COBY]: 42:30

We can't see this with people that come from a lot of, like, institutional trauma or  institutional betrayal. The weight that they kind of carry or the. Or that, you know, because again,  it's almost like they don't have the resilience in themselves, so they need to almost get  that from everybody else is kind of how the emotional vampire kind of operates. Yeah. Okay,  so the next one, is called the Mooch. Now, the mooch is the someone that is on your side,  someone that is right along with you, but their. Their allyship with you is  really dependent on what they want from you or what you can do for them. They're  someone that's going to ride your coattails and someone that's going to, like, you know,  feed off the. Off. Off what you get and try to, like, you know, turn your win into their win.

[JAMES]: 43:14

Yeah, this can be kind of going back to what I said around. You don't. You know,  with the great. You're not looking at building these relationships or these, supports from a  transactional nature necessarily, other than the professional, which has some of that ingrained in  it. But the mooch often is transactional. Right. They're looking for what you can do for them.

[COBY]: 43:37

Right.

[JAMES]: 43:38

And it is a very selfish, way of framing things. they could be somebody who,  in other circumstances, could be part of your geek squad. They could be a cheerleader for you,  somebody who could be encouraging. But there's always this underlying feeling or  tension of what are they actually after, or that they're. They're trying. They're doing  this to get something out of it. it's not. Not that everything has to be altruistic,  but, yeah, transactional. I think it's still a good term for it.

[COBY]: 44:16

Well, we see this a lot when someone is promoted, that one of their,  like, work friends is really excited for them because they're thinking,  think of all the special favors and perks that they're gonna get by riding the coattails of.  Of you that got promoted. So there's some of that too, right? Yes. So. So watch out for the  mooch. All right. The next one is the negatron. This is someone that finds a way to transform  a conversation or situation about. About. About struggles that you're having to be about them and  the problems that they're having. So they're. They're that kind of like that big, you know,  making. Making the. The. Almost like your, you know, like, your struggle is really, them and  their struggle or is kind of like, again, like how what's affecting you is really affecting Them.  It's like, you know, when you're, when you. I have to deal with this really bad news. You're trying  to talk to someone and they're like. And they're thinking, oh, my gosh, your bad news is bad for  me. And they're almost like, real trying to, like, add on to that, which can be a really negative.

[JAMES]: 45:14

Or even when you're excited about something. you know,  these are the people who are going to cut your legs out from under you because they're going  to find all of the negative reasons and they're going to focus on why you're not  going to be successful in what you're doing or why this great idea that you've had is  doomed to fail because they can only really see this negative, worldview.

[COBY]: 45:37

Yeah. The next one are what we call should cutters.

[JAMES]: 45:40

Yeah.

[COBY]: 45:41

And these are people who criticize you and tell you what you should have done.  They're the experts after the fact. They're the retroactive armchair quarterbacks that  could have seen that that's all the whole picture and really saw where you messed up,  but are really about that. Like, they're reflectively brilliant in the way that they.

[JAMES]: 46:00

Yeah, yeah. And again, I mean, these are.

[COBY]: 46:03

You're.

[JAMES]: 46:04

You can probably pick out many examples of this in your, personal and  professional life of people who you. How many times have I heard this even in my own life of,  you know, talking things through with people. Oh, well, you know,  what you should have done was it's like, well, thanks, that's helpful. Now after  I've already gone through this. Right. Those. It is a very demoralizing, very irritating.

[COBY]: 46:31

Because, I mean, like, sometimes, especially when you're like an entrepreneur and  you're, you're trying to do something new and bold and, or, or something, Something different, you'll  have people that are looking out for you to kind of say, you know, what you, you know, be careful  of this. And trying to warn you that's. That's not necessarily what a shit could. Or a sugar or  someone that maybe didn't say anything while you were. When they had the opportunity to. But once,  you know, there was a, A, misstep or a failure, they had all kinds of opinions of what you should.

[JAMES]: 46:57

But what I would have done is this.

[COBY]: 46:58

Yeah. Yeah. So. And then the last one I want to talk about is what we call the one  Upsman. And these are people who can only feel good about themselves by being better. Having  better stuff or, you know, or standing on top of someone else is the only way that they can,  that, that they can feel like, like, like, like they are. They are worthy of. Of it by again,  pushing other people down so that they can make it. Make it all about themselves. Yeah.

[JAMES]: 47:23

Oh, you've had a success wall. Coincidentally, I've had a greater success today.

[COBY]: 47:27

Right. I think too is that the one Upsman I feel is what is occupying a lot of social media,  that a lot of the influencers, a lot of the social medias, like, you know, like,  like seeing these executives that have had these, these incredible careers on LinkedIn or all these  kind of cool things. A lot of that is just the one upsmanship is that they're just trying to,  you know, again, if they saw someone on their network post something,  so they need to post something else too. And, and, and that competitive piece really does.

[JAMES]: 47:54

Social media is not reality, people. Yes, there are legitimate successes that we  want to celebrate and people who are doing really cool stuff and they're sharing that. But I mean,  I just, I'm so tired of the guru influencer culture. and you're right,  it's a lot of one upsmanship. It's a lot of projecting authority, and authenticity and  trying to be really show. Trying to present something that they're. They're not right.

[COBY]: 48:27

And the thing that, that I see a lot is with should cutters and A1 upsman are usually  people that we look to almost like as mentors, something that we want to. And they have success,  we want to kind of try and recreate that success and they end up up being the ones that  almost like tear down our resilience because they tell us all the things that we had done  wrong and necessarily pointing us in the right direction or their, their success was unique to  like the time that they got it right. So, so you couldn't recreate that. But they've got lots of,  lots of things about how to almost like make themselves feel better or, or oh my.

[JAMES]: 49:00

Word, I've seen so many business coaches and authors and who have been,  yes, wildly successful, but largely because of timing more than strategy.

[COBY]: 49:15

Right? Yes. Timing and connections that they had that were unique were unique to them.

[JAMES]: 49:20

And I mean, not taking away from being able to capitalize on timing and opportunity,  but thinking that because you were able to capitalize on very, very beneficial timing that  you can then turn around and start coaching other people on how to do it is very. Anyways, you're,  you end up. That's how you end up with people who just sell courses. and I'm, I made a million  dollars in 10 days and you can too. And all you need to do is buy my $199 course. And that's how  I'm going to continue to make money, by selling my expertise and not doing anything ever again.

[COBY]: 50:00

Right. Okay.

[JAMES]: 50:01

Irritated or bitter?

[COBY]: 50:02

Not at all. So. So again, I think that this conversation about again, the why leaders  feel isolated, why, you know, almost like the dirty dozen are kind of some of the people that  make that isolation kind of feel that way. So again, the emotional vampires, the mooch,  the negatron, the should cutters, the one ups men are sometimes the people that make it feel like,  you know, maybe they were the ones that burned us when we tried to reach out or  we tried to build m and build this kind of network for ourselves and we ran into these  kinds of people which end up making it, you know, setting us back even further. But the  idea of not relying on one or two people to play all these different roles in your sports system,  about realizing that sometimes it's a matter of diversifying and having seven or eight different  people that can play one or two roles can often be a more powerful way to build up this sense of  this connected resilience. and I think that what I would put out to people today is to reflect on  who you have in your life right now and you know, so who's in your network, who are the  people that you kind of engage with, who are the people that you kind of, again, you can talk to,  be your eek squad, those that are, that you can build relationships with to help you kind  of guide you through unfamiliar environments as being your tour guides, who are the professionals  that you can rely on and that you know now that you want to build connections with. So that way  they're in place for when you need them, or who are the butt kickers who are going to challenge  you and make you feel or make you see beyond your current situation and, and give you that  sense of sober perspective. This is stuff that can really, help us feel less isolated and allow us to  feel more resilient and more connected and more able to handle the chaotic world of work that's  out there for everybody. So that about is it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access  the video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit Roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us.

[ANNOUNCER]: 51:53

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