What Is Some Practical Psychology For The Workplace? [PART 3]

This episode touches on the theme of Practical Psychology.

In this episode, we explore some psychological concepts and principles that can help us better understand both those we work with and ourselves.

Coby walks us through these 3 concepts:

• The Halo/Horn Effect
• Negativity Bias
• Herzberg's Two-Factor Theory Of Motivation-Hygiene

Our prescription for this episode is to think critically about how these different theories impact our workplaces, our team members, and ourselves. Our workplace culture is shaped by a combination of factors; understanding where they come from is a good place to start.

Past Episode  Referenced:
S2 E17 - What Is Some Practical Psychology That Can Improve How I Lead And Work With Others?

S3 E11 - What Is Some Practical Psychology For The Workplace? [PART 2]

You can reach out to us to talk more about successfully working with others, just contact us at info@roman3.ca or through our LinkedIn page at https://www.linkedin.com/company/roman3

Don't forget to sign up for our New Quarterly Newsletter that launched this fall!

About Our Hosts!
James is an experienced business coach with a specialization in HR management and talent attraction and retention. 

Coby is a skilled educator and has an extensive background in building workforce and organizational capacity. 

For a little more on our ideas and concepts, check out our Knowledge Suite or our YouTube Channel, Solutions Explained by Roman 3.

Chapters

• 4:05 The Halo/Horn Effect
• 21:41 Negativity Bias
• 37:57 Herzberg's Two-Factor Theory Of Motivation-Hygiene

Transcript

[ANNOUNCER]: 0:00

Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness,  not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.

[COBY]: 0:10

Did we lose a patient?

[JAMES]: 0:12

No, that's just my lunch.

[COBY]: 0:14

Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby, he's James, and let's get  started with a question. What is some practical psychology for the workplace?

[JAMES]: 0:29

Yeah. Okay. So this episode's going live on New Year's Eve, and we typically,  towards the end of the year, we will do a. Let's look back over the last year and what lessons can  we learn from it? Or let's look forward, towards the next year, you know, episode. Just kind of  recapping or seeing what might be coming down the pike. However, it's 2025, and trying to recap or  make sense of what's been going on in 2025 kind of feels like an exercise in futility. And based on  what's happened this year, Lord only knows what 2026 has in store for us. So, in an attempt to  save what's left of our dwindling sanity, we are going to talk about practical psychology instead.  So Coby's going to introduce a psychological concept, and we're going to discuss why do we  need to know this? What does this look like, and how does it actually affect the workplace?

[COBY]: 1:36

Cool. Yes. Very happy to dig into nerd on some psychology  for the last episode of 2025 and not acknowledge the. Just.

[JAMES]: 1:48

Just moving on. It's happened. Move on.

[COBY]: 1:51

Yeah. But no idea what's coming, for next year, or wouldn't even want to  begin to guess that on that. So let's just stick with what we can control,  which is how we interact and understand people. I think that that's. That's why this is. It's good  for us to end the year off with a, conversation around practical psychology. So this is a third  episode that we've done on this. We did an episode, kind of. I think it might have been  season two. And then we did episode, I think in season three. Talking about it. We'll probably  do it. We'll probably have this. A format that we'll use again, probably this season.

[JAMES]: 2:23

It's been fairly well received so far. Yeah. No practical psychology piece,  really understanding. The more we can understand what drives the behaviors that we're seeing,  the better we can actually respond to and identify what we are observing in the workplace and how  we can actually. Guide the behaviors in a way that is actually productive and constructive.

[COBY]: 2:48

Well, and, again, like, as much as we kind of joke about the kind of chaotic nature  that's been this lot this past year. The thing is, is that what is a constant is the fact that we can  still better understand people as humans. And with a better understanding, we can have better  interactions and more meaningful engagement and ideally improve how we work with them. So there  is a lot of value in us looking at these different effects and these different kind of concepts and  theories and biases and everything like that to kind of just know that our fellow human is  a human and there. There's possibly a cause or a reason for why they are the way they are. So,  so these are great things for us just to be known in our personal life. There's also value  in our personal life. Knowing this stuff does not just live within the workplace. So there's lots  of. There's lots of benefit that someone can get from this conversation. So that being said, let's  jump into the first one. So just start talking about it and then, James, just make sure that.

[JAMES]: 3:48

Yeah, I'm just. So I'm going into these, I'm familiar with some of them,  but really m. I'm going to just sit here and grill you and try to make you explain what,  it is, why it's important, and then we can figure out how do we actually apply it.

[COBY]: 4:04

Sounds good. So the first one we're going to talk about is, called the halo effect. Now this  is one that some people probably have heard before. The halo effect is often. Is really  kind of understood as when we attribute positive, kind of attributes or you know, we are. We kind  of round up on someone based on their physical appearance, if they're attractive or based on  kind of the reputation that other people might have said about them, or if they're charming and  charismatic. We also assume that they're smart and diligent and those types of things too. It's  like people that we like for whatever reason or things that we like, for whatever reason, we give  more grace to and we give more sway in their, kind of in their characteristics or in their approach.  Like, like we're inclined to, you know, attribute positive characteristics to an attractive person,  even if we have actually haven't never really interacted with them. So it's one of those things  where like, you know, like, we just. We. We have it. We. We create this. This bias about someone  or about something that we find, you know, that we have. We're drawn to or that we see kind of,  you know, the ability for. Or we assume that, you know, because they are. Again, if they're charming  or if they're charismatic or they're outgoing or these kind of things too, we assume that they are  probably, you know, more intelligent, or we kind of give them more grace or those kinds of pieces.

[JAMES]: 5:36

Like, we like what they're doing in this area,  so we automatically assume that another area is gonna. So I'm assuming this isn't just like,  I have a personal relationship with somebody and I end up. I'm nicer to. In the workplace  to somebody who I already have a relationship with or a friendship with. This seems to be more of a,  I really appreciate the work that you did on this particular. In this particular domain.  So I'm going to assume that anything else that you do, because I already have this  positive impression of you, it just kind of carries over into everything else.

[COBY]: 6:18

You're right. But it's actually where the. Where the effect tends to happen  is not necessarily so. If you have a positive relationship with someone that you work with,  you'll be more patient with them. You'll assume that they know more. You know, you'll. You'll  round up with them. And that could be based. But that could be based on. On context, on seeing them  succeed, other situations, you know, but that. But that's really relation to your ability to kind of  give them that extra leeway. But the halo effect is actually more. It's. It's actually something  that we see as patterns of behaviors where others. Where. Where the groups react to the individual,  not necessarily your personal piece to. To someone else. So, for example, like, really friendly and  outgoing co workers. Get their bad work ethic or their mistakes ignored at a far greater rate.

[JAMES]: 7:09

Okay. So I, I actually see it happen, unfortunately, happen in the reverse,  where somebody who's not as outgoing, who may be introverted or quiet, or  may, not be as boisterous. they may. Be passed over for opportunities, or they may. Right.  So it kind of happens in both. The pause. You're taught the halo talks more about the positive,  but is it the same piece on the negative end or is that something else entirely?

[COBY]: 7:40

Something else. It's called the horn effect.

[JAMES]: 7:43

Okay, right.

[COBY]: 7:45

So the idea, you know, like, it's very, Very biblical.

[JAMES]: 7:48

Yeah. Right. Angels and demons, really?

[COBY]: 7:50

No, but that's really kind of like, again, The halo effect is that positive  association where the horn effect is the negative association. But like, even things like, you know,  we think that a, like, acute stapler will. Will use it more, and if it starts to break,  will be less. We'll almost be like, you know, more, patient with it. Whereas like a regular  standard one we might throw out faster even, Even if it stops working as much. Right. So  like it is this piece where things that we're drawn to, we have more patience with. We have,  we give more reverence to. again, like, like charm is one of those things where a charming person is,  is, is given so much more, so many more, you know, opportunities to improve behavior or they're,  or they're being rounded up so much more. Because again, because we see that because we assume,  because they're really good at the people's skills, the charming pieces, we assume that,  oh well, they must, you know, be. Be good at these pieces. Right. So, so it really is about  that. You know, when we find something that we're drawn to, we have so much more again,  patience, reverence, ability to kind of round up on that thing for. Across all other spectrums.

[JAMES]: 9:11

Okay, so I guess the, the big question is why do we like how does this actually not so  much how does this play out, but why do we need to know this as managers or leaders? Like what  purpose is there? Because it's, I mean it seems pretty reasonable, you know, explaining it. It's  the if we like one aspect of what somebody's doing, we are going to be more patient and  understanding and give them more opportunities. Doesn't sound like necessarily a bad thing.

[COBY]: 9:41

Right? So why this is something that we, that we need to know about, about and how  it impacts our workplace is really the fact that this is a bias. This is absolutely a a sense  of inequity that we're just accepting as being a normal thing. Because like again, the most classic  example are people that are with people that are, that are physically attractive. Again, we, when we  meet someone that's physically attractive, we're, we are, you know, someone that just looks good.

[JAMES]: 10:10

It's why everybody likes me. Moving on, moving on.

[COBY]: 10:17

but the idea that we, we. We. We also assume that. Because that we like how they look,  we also assume that we're going to like how they act. We're gon. They say we're going  to like being, you know, around. Right? So it's, it's. So there is that and we've heard.

[JAMES]: 10:30

That for years from like an interviewing,  from a ah, recruitment standpoint that you know, people who are, who take care of themselves,  who are physically attractive tend to be the ones who get the job opportunities,  the promotion opportunities. So the halo effect is really part, maybe a big contributor to  what's driving that phenomenon that has been well documented in the workplace for ages.

[COBY]: 10:54

Yeah, but. But the truth is, the halo effect is an error in our judgment.  And what it actually does is it reflects and kind of reinforces individual preferences, prejudices,  social perception, and again, and it can create inequity. Right. And so one of the things, too,  is that I like to always. When we talk about halo effect, I always like to kind of tie it back to  first impressions. Right. Because the. Another effect that we talked about, I think we talked  about kind of casually, is confirmation bias. So confirmation bias is when we're interacting with  someone we've already made. We already kind of have an opinion of them. We're looking to  have that opinion reinforced. Right. The idea of, you know, like, I kind, of. Again, so. So  if. If I have the halo effect hitting me where I like this person and they completely screw up,  I want to confirm that I'm not wrong about liking this person. So I'm looking to find  a way to give them an out or explain his internal factors or whatever it is, or say, oh, you know,  everyone makes mistakes, but I'm really trying to justify my previously held com. Or, a bias, trying  to find confirmation for that. Right, right. So again, it's. When we positively attribute,  you know, intelligence or good. Or good meaning or someone's mistake, we say, well, actually,  no, that's. That's not a mistake. That was intentional. It's strategic or they're just  kidding or those types of things, it becomes almost like a blank. Like a blank check to try  and write off bad performance, bad habits. Right. And again, going back to what you said earlier,  where you kind of were talking about the halo effect in a negative way. Again, the  horn effect. The horn effect is something that is also really important for us to be aware of too,  is that we overly judge people based on. Often on their. On their physical appearance or. Or  if they made a bad first impression, then we look to kind of confirm that negative first  impression. and with confirmation bias, you go, well, if they were, you know, I didn't like them  the first time I met them, so I'm looking for more reasons to not like them. So conflict.

[JAMES]: 12:58

I had a negative interaction for them,  and then every time they open their mouth, it just drives me up the wall.

[COBY]: 13:03

Absolutely. Absolutely. But these are all those things too, is that we're.  We're creating these errors in judgment based on our personal preference. Again, often it's based  on the things that we find physically attractive. Right. Yeah. and, you know, but it also reinforces  our prejudices, and it. It really does kind of like create a bit of like a social hierarchy  as well. Right. Whereas again, someone, I mean this is kind of why like they say that, you know,  like straight white middle aged men going fail up is largely because of the halo effect. Right.

[JAMES]: 13:43

So effect combined with confirmation bias and people just,  yeah, people just overlook the negative and over emphasize the. What they see as positive.

[COBY]: 13:54

Exactly. So like, and, and again, like, you know, but like, but what's funny is how  ingrained in us the halo effect is because like, like I said before about the stapler, there are,  you know, people buy cute little, you know, like tchotchkes or cute little, like, you know, like,  like things that they have kind of like, you know, like a cool staple. I have a really funky dinosaur  staple, remover. Like, you know, those types of things that you know, we get attached to those  little Persona developed, you know, items. But, but then, you know, if we have, we have a regular  one and they both break, we'll always like you give, you know, we'll always give the other one  the, the, the cute one that we're attached to say, oh, it's also bad. I'm not gonna throw that  one out. But like, like, like to me that holding on to that is just that how ingrained in us this  halo effect is that we say, oh, you know, I'll always give more patience. It's something that,  that I am drawn to or that I like how it looks or those types of things. Right. So, so how do we.

[JAMES]: 14:54

Because it's, it comes down to perception. Right. We're talking about.  These aren't actually, People who we liked aren't actually better at  all things. It's our perception of them. So how do we actually try to mitigate or  combat the halo effect so that we are not being, Prejudice is not the right word.

[COBY]: 15:16

No, but prejudice is actually the right word.

[JAMES]: 15:18

Is it? Okay, yeah, yeah.

[COBY]: 15:19

Because, because, I mean we're, because we're.

[JAMES]: 15:21

Being like, we are prejudging people based on one and other interactions.

[COBY]: 15:26

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean like we see that again, like recruitment's a great example. The  more attractive candidate gets the confirmation bias and gets the first impression bias and gets  the lift on that kind of things. Right. So I mean, the first thing we need to do is we  need to think critically and click. Reflective of ourselves. Right. Like try to take a step  back and when we're looking for reasons to give someone grace or give someone like, you know,  a third chance or whatever like that maybe it's a matter of going, okay, why is that? Right. Like,  let me just take a step back and go, okay, let's just, let me just kind of check myself here and  being like, is this a bias that I'm leaning into or is this something that, you know,  there actually is, there actually is a reason for this additional third chance or this additional  grace or whatever it is that this, you know, and part of it is just trying to like again  figure out am I a slave to my human psychological programming and the halo effect has kind of taken  over. Is this friendly coworker that's bad at their job, you know, someone that I'm willing  to be patient with more so than someone else or. Right. So part of it is just that critical  reflection piece to think, you know, is this something that, that I'm bringing to the,  to the work into, into my interactions? and probably you are. I mean this is so ingrained  in us that, that it's, that it's, it's also so common and I think that if, and again this,  this. I don't want to get into the impact of this in our personal lives because that's a, you know,  that's conversation, you know, for to have. but it's, this lives within us. But how, how much  of a hold it has on us is more up to us if we, if we're critical, critically reflective of it.

[JAMES]: 17:06

Yeah, it's, it's unrealistic to think that somebody is going to be able to not fall into  this, bias because. It'S a common psychological trait. It's part of who, what makes up our DNA as  ah, human beings. I think the concern that I have is more so on the flip side, what you refer to as  the horn effect and that we as leaders and managers are not looking for opportunities  to penalize people who we don't necessarily have that great first impression with. Right.  so that, I mean the two together. Yes, it's, it's not good to gloss over the mistakes that  somebody that we like has made that does a lot of harm to team morale and performance.  But just as importantly, I think is understanding and recognizing. The pitfall that we can walk  into if we are, if we have that negative association and how damaging that can be.

[COBY]: 18:18

Well, but you're right, but think about how impactful these two  effects are together. Right. That we're giving people all kinds of second chances  and rounding up to someone that we like or that is friendly or charming or good  looking and we're giving no grace and we're cutting no slack and we're being extra hard  on people that are not friendly or are not physically attractive or maybe are a  little bit socially awkward. Right. I mean, does that sound like workplaces that you,  the listener, are working in? Likely it does. Right. So. So this is, again, that.

[JAMES]: 18:57

I wonder how much this is exasperated by, like, with cultural differences as well.

[COBY]: 19:02

Massively.

[JAMES]: 19:03

Right. Like, and how systemic it becomes of, if we are presented with something that we're  unfamiliar with or we have a negative impression of for whatever reason, and how that plays out  in the workplace. Like, it. It sounds like. Although the halo effect almost sounds positive.

[COBY]: 19:23

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 19:24

Right. because we are attributing positive,  characteristics and rounding up for people. The way that it plays out and the. The reverse of it,  especially from a cultural or from a, protected grounds, could be actually not only damaging,  but legally, you know, that it's how we could find our organizations running into,  discrimination, challenges and racism and, you know, unfair labor practices  and these types of pieces without. Even without. It's not about intent.

[COBY]: 20:05

No.

[JAMES]: 20:06

But intent is less important than what actually happens.

[COBY]: 20:09

Right. Because the decisions being made, why they're made,  can be. Often be irrelevant. The fact that they're made and people are acting on them.

[JAMES]: 20:17

Yeah.

[COBY]: 20:18

Because you're right, the halo effect puts  organizations and people at risk of all those things that you mentioned. Right.

[JAMES]: 20:25

Yeah.

[COBY]: 20:25

So it is something that we need to be very clear to check our biases on,  because it's something that is probably, again, it's wired into us to think this way.  So it's something that we need to be critically reflective and take a step back and kind of like,  challenge our assumptions. You can have. Okay, what. Why is this happening? I need to challenge  this bias. Is this, you know, it's something that I'm legitimately, you know, correct on, or  could there be more a play that I'm. That I'm not seeing, like the halo effect or the horn effect?

[JAMES]: 20:53

Yeah. I think the last thing that I'll say on this is really,  from a management or leadership perspective, it's really important to understand these biases  so that you are able to be, consistent and fair and equitable with your team members. But for our  friends and listeners in hr, yeah, this. The. The way that this can play out seemingly. Innocently,  because I don't think it would be malicious. it still presents significant risks to the  organization from a legal, from a discrimination or from a, you know, from that perspective.

[COBY]: 21:37

So.

[JAMES]: 21:38

Yeah. Interesting. Okay.

[COBY]: 21:40

Yep. Yeah. Okay. Let's Move on to the second one. this one is called the  negativity bias. Now the negativity bias, is a cognitive bias where even positive,  sorry, when positive and neutral things of, you know, of a fairly significant intensity happen,  things that are more negative in nature that are maybe of a similar intensity have a much  greater effect on our psychological state than, you know, than those neutral or those positive  things. Because our brains are wired to focus more on negative emotions. Which, you know, is one of  the reasons why making emotional health or having, you know, again, we talked about like, you know,  you know, emotional load and those type of things, things like that. Right. But improving  our emotional health is much more difficult without a very focused, intentional effort because  we are more wired to process those negative emotions. So it's, it's kind of, you know,  in effect, it's the idea that bad things have a stronger, larger impact on us than good things do.

[JAMES]: 22:49

Right.

[COBY]: 22:50

So.

[JAMES]: 22:52

If something bad happens to us and something good happens to us,  we are far more likely to focus on the bad.

[COBY]: 22:59

Right? Yeah.

[JAMES]: 23:01

Simple way to put it.

[COBY]: 23:02

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 23:02

so like, this is kind of, I mean you, you,  we've heard over the years or like what. I'm not going to try to cite anything but,  the idea that, you know, it takes more positive interactions to offset a negative interaction. So  whether we're talking about from a, like a marketing perspective. Right. It will,  people will look at reviews of a product and they will, look at, there may be, it may be 4.7 stars,  but they're going to look at those one star reviews, right. And figure out why, you know,  what those are about. And they may actually give more credence to the one star reviews than  they would to the, you know, 5,000, five star reviews. Right? That, yeah. Is that a way of.

[COBY]: 23:53

Yeah, that is one way. But even kind of, you know, because again,  one of the things that they teach people kind of like, you know,  who are looking to improve like mindfulness or those kinds of things too, is to, is to,  is to intentionally focus on positive interactions and gratitude because our brains are wired to  ignore those and focus on negative things and kind of like, you know, and like negative emotions.

[JAMES]: 24:18

Right?

[COBY]: 24:19

Because like, you know, so I mean, if you, you know, wake up in the morning and you  wake up on time, to your alarm, you wake up, wake up lightly, you go down, you pour your morning  coffee and it tastes just right and you know, and like, you know, the house is quiet, but then you,  then you trip and spill your coffee. All you're going to ever Remember for that morning was that  you spilled the coffee. Not kind of the, the two positive things of waking up kind of gently on  time and having your coffee taste right, that hit you is you're only gonna remember that one  negative thing. That's gonna be the thing that kind of like clouds your morning. Like, just like  when you ask someone how is your day? If their day wasn't bad, they're like, it was okay. But if like  one bad thing happened to them, it was a bad day. Regardless of what's happening come around that,  you know, it's, it is that, you know, we, again, we're wired for, to look out for and to prioritize  the negative experiences, the. All those kind of pieces, because it's just, it's just part of, of  our DNA. And the reason for that is because like, so again, as early humans as like kind of like,  you know, you know, when we were kind of like, you know, developing kind of like, you know,  towards, you know, like Homo sapiens, we had to pay attention to potential threats. Right?  So the idea of like, you know, listening for, you know, like predators hiding in the bushes  or listening for those kind of things like that, that, you know, being aware and being,  and processing potential threats was a, make or break life or death situation for us. All right?

[JAMES]: 25:46

So it's born out of more of a survival instinct.

[COBY]: 25:49

It is because, like, because again, if we missed, if we avoided a danger that has a  much bigger impact on our lives than say, missing out on a positive opportunity, right? Or something  good happening to us, like, right? Like, I mean, that bush that shaking, could it be a tiger or  could it be something that is easy for us to kill and eat? Right? It's better to not take that risk  survival wise. So it's better to miss out on avoiding the negative thing. So the negative thing  is where our focus is. And again, and we talked about, we see this when we talk about you and I,  not so much in the podcast, but in some of our work we talk about kind of the psychology of  marketing. and one of the things we talk about a lot in that is loss aversion, where, you know,  we are weighing potential losses much more heavily than potential gains. We'd much rather avoid  losing something or missing out on something than actually, than actually get something. Like the.

[JAMES]: 26:51

It's why FOMO is such an effective marketing tool,  right? It's the fear of missing out, right?

[COBY]: 26:56

Exactly. Yeah. So we, so we look to avoid potential, a potential loss like, again, like,  like, you know, if, you know, like people that Invest, for example, if they, they're much more  hit by a dip than, than, than by a spike because that dip is, is seen as more hurtful because we're  processing that, that emotion more so because like, anything that goes up, it's probably  going to come down. So like, there's a pessimism piece to it as well. Right. But I mean, this is,  this is why the negativity bias is kind of so impactful on us. Because it really does just  highlight how ingrained and negative emotions and negative kind of, outcomes or negative situations  are and that it would take so much more positive or even neutral things that are, get overlooked  and get ignored, for us to actually kind of have the same effect. Now what is so dangerous about  this combined with the horn effect is that if we have a negative experience with an individual,  then, or, you know, then we, then that negative, then the confirmation bias creates that negative  first impression piece and then we're looking for those negative pieces as well. Which is why the  horn effect can actually be something, as you were saying, can be so much more devastating than the.

[JAMES]: 28:16

Because we are more wired to look for the negative. Yeah, right.  Which is the negative negativity bias that we're talking about now. And when  we're looking for the negative and we find it, the horn effect takes over and  we start looking for more negative experiences with this individual.

[COBY]: 28:32

Exactly. Yeah. That's just it. So like, I mean, a good place to see this in the workplace.  Right. So again, so how this affects the workplaces, where we want to get to is  the idea of like, an employee may receive, again, performance review or feedback from their manager  may receive a lot of really positive, you know, like feedback, but they may have like a couple  two or three things for them to work on. Those two or three things for them to work on are going to  be what rattles around in their brain at night more so than all the like 10 things that they're  excelling in. Right. So there is that, there is, there is that, that piece too, that, you know, we,  we tend to kind of like, you know, not so much focus on the areas that we're doing well on,  because part of it too is thinking about this. If you're trying to coach someone and they're  doing things well, they're not going to focus on the things that they're doing, on making the  things that are making the things that they're doing well better. They're going to focus on  trying to kind of like pick up the slack on the Things that they're not doing as well on. Right.  But all that really does is that because again we focus on that too so we're more focused on you.  Hey, you're doing all these things great, don't touch those anymore because these two or three  things that you're working on or that I want you to improve on, where we're going to focus.

[JAMES]: 29:50

Yes, right.

[COBY]: 29:50

But the reality is, is that we're actually limiting someone's potential growth, potential  impact, potential career advancement because we're too focused on, on bringing up the areas they're  short on rather than trying to like, you know, improve them all. We'll end up focusing on just,  on just the negative things being improved rather than actually trying to like have those  be improved but still maintaining positive, you know, impact on the, on the, they're doing well.

[JAMES]: 30:14

Might be a tangent, but it seems somewhat related because we often talk about from a team,  dynamic and team performance standpoint around strength based approach. Right. Of you know,  we're not trying everybody has strengths and weaknesses and kind of the traditional idea,  of trying to bring everybody, you know, work on your weakness so that you can bring those  up is how we are, how we see a lot of people trying to play out from a team dynamics or from  a performance management framework rather than allowing people to lean heavily into  their strengths. and it's not that we ignore or negate the weaknesses, but we build team.  Approach to be able to compensate for weaknesses, rather than focusing on them.

[COBY]: 31:01

Yeah, no, and that's just it because we don't like people having negative attributes or  weaknesses and even if we're able to negate them through them working with someone else, we almost  like. And this is one of the challenges that we run into when we're trying to kind of organize,  shift organizations towards that more strength based approach is people get stuck on. Well,  I want them to fix the things that are negative and we're like well yes, we do  want to look at kind of again trying to make sure that there's not gaps or holes or that you know,  or productivity is not dropping because of these pieces but see largely do they have to be good  at everything? Or can we accept that, you know, or can we accept that there's stuff that they're  not going to be great at. But if someone else's strengths make up for their weaknesses, like again  if someone's not very organized but they're really good with people and we have someone that's not  really great with people but is really organized. If they work together well, why do we have to  really focus on making them all good everything rather than letting them focus on them doing  the stuff they're good at and letting them. And then not so much focusing on the negative pieces,  but we're hardwired to not like those negative pieces. And we see that more in them rather than  almost like they can often be overshadowed what they're good at by what they're bad at. And that's  the other thing too that really kind of impacts this for the workplace is someone's negative  attributes may stand out more than all the things that they're good at. To us it's co workers. To  us as managers or even like you know, to our bosses, we're more bothered by the two or three  things that they're not great at and all the stuff and we kind of forget about all the things that  they're really, really good at. And we can. And we, and it makes us, makes us reductive. Right?

[JAMES]: 32:52

Yeah. And that. Okay, that, that makes a lot of sense to me because I,  I'm now seeing a lot of recent conversations, or interactions that I've had where you know. A  staff member may have concern, like have brought concerns about manager, forward. And you know,  it's one, what seems to be a relatively minor aspect of the totality of what the role is and  the interactions. But they get, they've become very laser focused on this one negative attribute  that they don't like that all of the other positive things, that has happened, all the  positive interactions like and this is somebody who has gone above and beyond for this like the  manager has gone above and beyond to support the individual and to you know, make sure that like  even so much as you know, giving them covering for them when they've had an emergency that  they had to take care of. Like just right from my perspective the manager has been quite effective  but they're still laser focused on this one thing that they don't like. And they've completely, it  seems like they've completely forgotten or ignored all of the positive interactions that they've had.  All of the, all the with times that the manager has stepped up and helped them or supported  them and it all becomes both this one in my view, relatively minor negative concern that they have.

[COBY]: 34:34

Yeah, yeah. And, and that's just it because, because again the weight of the  negative emotions on us is so much heavier. Because I mean like, and again this is also  why improving our emotional health personally gets Harder. Right. Because again, both with  the negative emotions that we have from someone else is, is overshadowed. Like in this situation,  you know, the employees, negative emotions regard to this manager are, are heavier than the positive  experiences that should create positive emotions. Yeah. It's, it's not weighted the same and.

[JAMES]: 35:13

You can't logic your way to an emotional response. Right. Like even  trying to sit down with this person and work through some of this with  them has been somewhat challenging because it is an emotional response.

[COBY]: 35:23

Right.

[JAMES]: 35:24

And no amount of logic is going to change in emotion.

[COBY]: 35:27

No. But the other thing too is like, our brains are really wired to kind of look at this,  you know, to put this extra weight on, on the, on the negative emotions. Because again,  whether we're talking about negative emotions towards someone else or even towards feelings  that we have for ourselves, it means that our emotional health, whatever we need, we need to  resolve to improve our emotional health is not something that can happen without intention.  Because the cards are stacked against us when it comes to this negativity bias that if we're  going to actually improve someone's emotional health or emotional kind of like, you know,  reaction to things, then it has to be about very intentional desire to  do that. They have to see the error and the weight that it's putting on them.

[JAMES]: 36:14

We almost need to acknowledge the negativity bias first, first before we can  ever move past it. Because if we don't acknowledge that we are waiting the negative experiences far  more heavily than we should, then we're never really going to be able to move past that.

[COBY]: 36:29

Right. And like in the episode that we did recently about like, why are you so tired? at the  end of the day of work, right. We talked about the emotional load and the kind of cognitive,  cognitive appraisal theory. Right? Because with that it's the idea that we're, we're attaching  this negativity bias, this, this, this heavier weight of emotional, negative emotional reactions  to an individual then something that creates a heavier emotional load on us. So we're hurting our  relationship with them. We're hurting our, their reputation. In our eyes. We're also hurting our  own emotional health by carrying all this weight on us. So there's a lot of harm that comes from  this negativity bias where, because again we're making this, that, you know, we can't create  good emotional health when, you know, without intentionally trying to identify these things,  without being critical, reflective, again without kind of, again labeling, kind of the, the bias  that we're carrying, being open to being, carrying this bias, and trying to rewire how we  think about ourselves and these people. It's. You really cannot do, you know, a great work around  emotional health without this intentional effort and this focus and this commitment to it. Because,  again, we're trying to avoid the predator in the bushes rather than trying to like,  you know, because that's a bigger concern to us than what might be an opportunity that could be a  more positive thing to us. We'd rather avoid the negative than try than experience the positive.

[JAMES]: 37:55

let's move on to our last one.

[COBY]: 37:58

Great. So the last one is one that we talk about a lot when  we talk about job dissatisfaction. And you're more familiar with this  one. So this is the two factor theory of motivation and hygiene. So we, you know,  around our office, we just refer to it as Hertzberg Theory, because Hertzberg is the,  kind of the. The author of this theory. It's kind of an older theory from a long time ago.

[JAMES]: 38:24

Hertzberg's motivation hygiene theory. You can look it up. It's a well,  structured, well regarded academic theory.

[COBY]: 38:32

Yeah. Now for us, we use this as one of our core foundational theories and how we do  organizational assessments and we're. And kind of. And how. And really, this is. To us, this is. This  is an anchor theory for workplace culture. Because the concept of the theory is that there are two,  major factors that influence kind of people's. Well, influence organization's  culture and people's attachment to their work. There's hygiene, there's hygiene,  factors which are things like company policies, salaries, working conditions,  the kind of. The status you have, the interpersonal relationships with people. so again,  a lot of those like, you know, factor pieces that, you know, when it comes to, when it comes to like,  policies and salary, we expect them to be fair, them to be kind of, you know,  adequate and competitive and all those other kind of. All the kind of pieces. and the idea is,  is that if they're. If they're insufficient, if they're not handled well, those m. Those hygiene  examples, if they're not handled well, it creates dissatisfaction in the work. If you feel like your  policies are not being fair and being used against you, if you feel like the salary is uncompetitive  and not sufficiently meeting your needs, if you feel like the work environment is dangerous or,  you know, there's. There's low job security or those kinds of pieces, it creates this level of  dissatisfaction. Now again, we talk about this all the time. We talk about job dissatisfaction.

[JAMES]: 40:02

Yeah, you're going to hear a lot of common language to what. To what we already  use. because Hertzberg, as you said, is kind of foundational to, several things that we  talk, about. But I think fundamentally the two different, we've got factors  that create job dissatisfaction, and we've got factors that create job satisfaction.  And the big. The big learning piece from Hertzberg is understanding that these are separate issues.  And oftentimes companies try to focus on creating, like modifying m. Those factors that create  satisfaction. So achievement or advancement, recognition. Those pieces, they, they focus.  They want to remove job dissatisfaction by building job satisfaction for this.

[COBY]: 40:54

Let's talk about it through the lens of the motivation hygiene theory,  okay? Because again, the hygiene examples are those things. The policies, the salaries, those  jobs, job security. And again, if those hygiene factors are not sufficiently met, it does create  this discontentment, this dissatisfaction, this dislike of our work. Because we don't feel like  those basic things that we need are given to us in the way that we need them to enjoy or appreciate  or have any kind of reverence for the work that we do. It makes us unhappy and dissatisfied. Now,  on the other side, like you said, there's the factors that create the job dissatisfaction,  but these are the motivating factors, ones that kind of create the motivation. Those are  things like you said, achievement, recognition, advancement, responsibility, personal growth,  the work itself. Those types of things, those qualities that we have. And if we have those in  a job, then those are things that will start to give us more motivation, sort of give us  more attachment to the work. We'll start to feel. Feel more connected to the work that we do. But  like you said, you can't improve motivation when these hygiene factors are not there. So if the,  if the salaries are really insufficient, then you can't, you know, and people are feeling unhappy  with their work. Creating more opportunities for advancement doesn't balance those. Those out. So  the whole idea is that, and we talk about this in some of our other programs, that if you. You the.  The trick to resolving the hygiene, problems that create this unhappiness and this dissatisfaction.  If you do that, if you address those and you make those sufficient, you get people to a point where  they're not dissatisfied. Or as we call it, the jobs are neutral. There's a, There's a  neutrality. The jobs are okay, you know, no big complaints is kind of how we talk about it, right?

[JAMES]: 42:53

Yeah.

[COBY]: 42:54

Now, when you get to a no complaints type of workplace, that's when the motivating factors,  the achievement, the advancement, the recognition will start to take hold  and people. And if you start incorporating those things, people feel a sense of accomplishment or  they feel like they've got. Their contributions are re recognized or there's career growth that  will start to create that motivation built on this, on this, the job is okay. This,  this neutrality. We're not dissatisfied. Then we'll start to really see this increase in  people's ability to be motivated and create the satisfaction. I'm really proud of my job. But that's really the thing is, is that you, you have to fix, you have to  resolve the hygiene issues before the motivating issues will have any ability to be successful.

[JAMES]: 43:41

Yeah. And so tying this to how it affects the workplace,  I mean this one has a huge impact on how people engage in work, every day.

[COBY]: 43:53

Yeah.

[JAMES]: 43:53

And the common mistake that we see, ah. Is that. Companies will want to jump right to. If  people are unhappy, then let's put a recognition program in place. Right. If people are unhappy,  then we are going to hold a you know, well, during the, we're going to hold  a recognition or award ceremony or like we're gonna, we're gonna do go through these steps  to show how much people are appreciated. Or we're going to stress the fact that there are  internal advancement opportunities or we're going to, you know, we're going to work on  these motivating factors. We want to motivate people to be happier. And that doesn't work  if people are actively dissatisfied. And the way that we use this theory at Roman 3 is that  this really Hertzberg informs a significant amount of our workplace culture hierarchy.

[COBY]: 44:59

Yep.

[JAMES]: 45:00

And we talk about it from the framework of you will not be able to sustain, feeling of  belonging at work or a sense of feeling engaged in the work if there's active dissatisfaction,  if people are upset with the factors of the workplace. So we have to start at the  foundational level to address the factors of the workplace to make sure that they are competitive,  sufficient and equitable. If you've been tracking with us for any length of time, you've heard us  probably, you're probably tired of hearing us say that. but it is so foundational to how we  start to shift perspective, perceptions around how people feel, feel in their jobs. And if we  can man for a lot of places, if we can get them to the place of meh. It's not bad here. That's a win.

[COBY]: 46:02

That's a huge win. You're right. Right.

[JAMES]: 46:05

But it's, it's that we need to get to that point before we're going to be able  to really sustain success at the higher levels of the workplace culture hierarchy.

[COBY]: 46:15

Well, here's the thing. Like I can't. I mean we've experienced this, I'm sure you  listening have definitely experienced this at some point in some job, you're at a company event and  they're, they're trying to make this intentional effort to recognize people and they're like,  you know, and you know, you know, so they're trying to give this big thank you. And you  hear your co workers or you're the one saying this like, you know, they really appreciate us,  they'd pay us more or they'd give us these full time contracts or, you know, they'd,  you know, make sure that the workplace is safe. That that moment is, is, is what happens when  organizations are not acknowledging and following Hertzberg's theory of motivation hygiene.

[JAMES]: 46:56

I don't want a pin thanking me for  five years of service. I want my manager to treat me with respect.

[COBY]: 47:03

Right?

[JAMES]: 47:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely fair. Yeah.

[COBY]: 47:08

And that, but, but that. Those moments of like, if you really appreciate us, they'd pay  us more. Whatever though that feeling is that the breakdown of. Or additions not following  Hertzberg's theory. Yeah, that's that. So it's so, and we see, it's so visceral for people to  feel it and we see it so often, but that is such a foundational piece that that is where,  why they can't, you know, reward ceremony, career ladders and career growth and you know, like,  kind of like giving people more challenging jobs their way out of people hating their  work because you're, you're, you're tackling the wrong problem. You haven't asked yourself  the important question, what needs to exist first for this to be effective? And that's  exactly what it's. Hertzberg's theory was foundational for us developing just that  being the question we ask every time we do something new in organization. Is that one.

[JAMES]: 48:04

And every time we ask that question, the answer became Hertzberg's theory.

[COBY]: 48:11

Yep.

[JAMES]: 48:11

Like it. I cannot stress enough how important and influential Hertzberg theory  has been in how we approach so much of our work. and how it guides what we do, Is such an  important. Factor to understand because not only are you not going to sustain success, but if you  have a large amount of, call it dissatisfaction, call it anger, call it resentment, whatever,  feelings of discontent, you can do more harm than good by trying to address the motivating factors.  If you have not addressed the hygiene factors. If you have not addressed the core workplace  factors that drive, job dissatisfaction. If you have managers who are inconsistent and treat  people poorly, you, you pay the compensation is not competitive sufficient or equity equitable.  There's no job security and the working conditions are unsafe or not good in general. And you stand  up and try to recognize or motivate people. It not only comes across as shallow and insincere,  even though you may be very sincere in your attempt to do, can come across as insulting.

[COBY]: 49:40

Right.

[JAMES]: 49:41

And that's why it's so critical to understand how this motivation, hygiene theory,  really it's, it impacts so much of the employee, experience.

[COBY]: 49:56

It does. But I mean that those negative feelings that they have for their workplace when  these motivation or, sorry, when these hygiene factors are not sufficient falls into the  negativity bias. Right, Right. It starts, you know, we focus so much more on that. So again,  we ignore the things that you're trying to do organization to, to improve the little  perks you're trying to give us. Try and make up for it. But, but you're, you're, you're,  you're fixing the wrong problem and you're not asking yourself what needs to happen first so that  bad is stronger than good is so reinforced in the workplace. And then again, then we start to get,  then these managers are inconsistent. Then we get into the whole horn effect piece where  we're writing them off and everything we take, we roll our eyes up because everything they say  just drives us crazy. It all plays together. And this is why our workplaces are so complex,  why they're so exhausting while these, why these systemic issues just are so pervasive. Because  people don't realize that these are these effects stacking on top of each other. And that's why when  we go into organizations and we start off with our talent security assessments or whatever we do,  when we first go into organization, everything is looked at from this organizational psychology  perspective to make sure that we're unearthing the stuff to find out what has to exist first  before the solutions organizations want to achieve will be successful. And that really  is why all of this impacts our workplace and why we need to know all of this because we  have to understand the complexity that this stuff lives in our organizations.

[JAMES]: 51:34

That's a pretty good summary. I like how it all ties together.

[COBY]: 51:38

So that about does it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access  to video version hosted on our YouTube channel,  visit Roman3.CA/podcasts. Thanks for joining us and have a great new year.

[ANNOUNCER]: 51:51

For more information on topics like these, don't forget to Visit us at Roman3.CA.  Side effects of this podcast may include improved retention, high productivity,  increased market share, employees breaking out in spontaneous dance,  dry mouth, aversion to the sound of James voice, desire to find a better podcast...