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Diagnosing The Workplace: Not Just An HR Podcast
Join James and Coby from Roman 3 as they diagnose issues and prescribe solutions to today's most important workplace challenges.
Diagnosing The Workplace: Not Just An HR Podcast
Implementation Gaps, Avoiding Micromanagement, Recruiting in 2025 - Answering Listener Questions
In this episode, we explore 3 questions from listeners and conversations with clients:
- What are businesses missing in implementation?
- How do I make sure I am not micromanaging?
- •What are some tips for recruitment in 2025?
Our prescription for this episode: Don't underestimate what building a strategy with a view of the big picture can do to address your problems.
Past Episode Referenced:
S2 E9: What Happens When Businesses Counterfeit Psychological Safety?
S3 E24: What Do I Need To Know To Be An Effective Leader?
You can reach out to us to talk more about any of these topics, contact us at info@roman3.ca or through our LinkedIn page at https://www.linkedin.com/company/roman3
Don't forget to sign up for our New Quarterly Newsletter that launched in 2024.
About Our Hosts!
James is an experienced business coach with a specialization in HR management and talent attraction and retention.
Coby is a skilled educator and has an extensive background in building workforce and organizational capacity.
For a little more on our ideas and concepts, check out our Knowledge Suite or our YouTube Channel, Solutions Explained by Roman 3.
Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness, not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.
[COBY]:Did we lose a patient?
[JAMES]:No, that's just my lunch.
[COBY]:Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby, he's James. And we're going to do something a little bit different today. We're gonna answer some questions posed to us by you, our faithful listeners.
[JAMES]:Yeah, so Q and A session. so I don't really have much of a witty and wise intro.
[COBY]:although it's not something you usually bring to. The intro is witty.
[JAMES]:Oh, I am absolutely wide more irritated.
[COBY]:And condescending, I guess. But there's a wisdom, I suppose.
[JAMES]:Yeah. Anyways, moving on. yeah, we've got some questions that we want to jump into.
[COBY]:Cool. So why don't we just jump into the first question. I'll ask it to you, James.
[JAMES]:Sure.
[COBY]:So, this question reads, what are businesses missing in implementation?
[JAMES]:Well, based on a lot of the work we've been doing, everything.
[COBY]:a lot of holes, that's for sure.
[JAMES]:Well, I think the biggest thing that I see, it's a problem with implementation, but it's also a problem with strategy. It's the idea of if you build it, magic's goingna happen and we're going toa be successful. It's the. I've got this great idea to. It doesn't really matter. Right. Maybe you're looking at implementing a new, marketing strategy. So we've got this great product we got. We're gonna push it out there and I, you know, step one is market the product. Step two is, I don't know, magic happens. And step three is profit. Right. Like it's this idea that, merely if you actually just, if you just go through the actions or if you just, it doesn't implement something, then it's going to fix your problems. We see this often with technology solutions where companies are looking for a solution to a particular problem. engagement actually is a great example because it's something that I like to harp on. Anyways, so you've got a problem with engagement. You find a software that will allow you to create these really fantastic, well designed, visually appealing engagement surveys. And that's going to. Somehow you implement this software and your problems are fixed because now you have an engagement strategy. It step one, buy the software. Step two, I don't know, collect data, I guess. And step three, somehow we fixed our problem.
[COBY]:Right? Yeah, I know it funny, it'a little bit hard to articulate what it is that theyre missing. But you're right, it'like there'an expectation of.
[JAMES]:We don'have.
[COBY]:To understand how it all fits together. We just know that if we do something, there will be automatic effects.
[JAMES]:Well, it's the lack of. Rarely do we see, issues that are not interconnected with other problems or that are causing or contributing to other challenges. So trying to fix any one problem in a vacuum oftentimes doesn't lead to success. Because you're looking at, oftentimes you're looking at the symptom, right? You're looking at what problem am I experiencing? And we're trying to address that particular pain point which is a symptom of the underlying problems. So it's. I don't know that it's. I might be going off on a tangent and not really answering the question, but it's not really a problem with implementation. It's a problem with not understanding what is actually causing your problem and then implementing a solution to address the symptom, not the cause.
[COBY]:You know what? So I've been a project manager for a really long time and one of the things that's always, is always, always present when we're building strategy, we're building steps and everything else like that too. Because again, the project management is a lot of, you know, it's about taking big steps and breaking them down into daily or even hourly steps. So that way everything to account for what people are often expecting is, is that, for you to hit the end goal, it's almost like half the journey is up a hill. And when you hit the tipping point, then it's all downhill from there and stuff just happens automatically. And a lot of people view implementation and projects and kind of with that idea of, once you hit that tipping point, that precipice, everything else just falls into place again. Kind of like said, step one is step two and the hit point and then profit. But the reality is, almost every project I've been a part of, and I've been a part of many, the entire trip is completely uphill. There is no tipping point. There is no press.
[JAMES]:Not only is it uphill, it's often pushing a boulder uphill.
[COBY]:It is. And which is why, like I think I said before in past episode that my most hated expression is if we build it, they will come. Yeah, great movie, Field of Dreams. But it's a terrible business philosophy because that's the idea. If you build, if you push it to that tipping point, then it's all downhill from there and people will come and that is not the case. And it's almost like that's because you're right, it's not necessarily implementation. It's actually almost like the ideas of change management is that it has to be constant, it has to be relentless. You have to be like accounting for buy in and actions and steps and testing and retesting and going back and getting feedback. It's never a linear path up a hill and then it's all downhill from there. It'never that way. But there is that assumption that if we do X, Y and Z, then something will happen even though we don't fully understand what'going to be. But we'get to the outcome through momentum alone or through the natural outcomes or once we hit the tipping point.
[JAMES]:Yeah. And I think it's a problem m of validation as well. Because we're looking, if you go searching for a solution to. So we've got a problem with turnover or we've got a problem with recruitment. you know, we can't bring enough people in. We know what our problem are. So is so we go looking for a solution to that problem and we get validated that the solution, when we go out to the market to fix that problem, we're going to be talking with people who are selling us on a solution to that pain point. Right. So we can buy, we can, you know, bring in external recruiters to help with, we can buy, purchase recruitment, software. We can, you know, get all of these fancy gadgets that make us more efficient at being really bad at recruitment. But we're going to the market to validate a problem that they're selling us the solution on. So if you go searching for an answer to how do I do recruitment more efficiently? Yeah, there's lots of ways to do it. But if your recruitment problem is actually, actually stems from a, you know, a really poor employer brand or a really poor employee experience, then you know, buying a piece of software that allows you to become more efficient isn't actually going to change your outatcomes. It's just going to make it easy for you to be bad at it.
[COBY]:Right. Yeah. And like, and that's just it, you kind of alluded to it before. It's about, you know, you're trying to solve, trying to implement solutions to fix symptoms rather than truly understanding the underlying cause. And I mean, and this is why, like, this is why the work that we do, once people kind of get past the fact that when we describe the solutions that we provide, it sounds like the marketing and language of almost every other company out there is hard, which is a problem of ours. Hard to stand out when everyone's saying they can do sustainable, you know, long term solutions. But the thing is, but for us we go after the foundations first, right?
[JAMES]:We why we start with investigations. Right. We need to actually validate what So I love our clients, but rarely do people come to us actually knowing where their problems come from. Right. They know what they'they, know what's causing them pain. They know what's taking their time. They know what's sucking the energy out of their job. They know what the problem is. They don't necessarily know what the cause of that problem problem is.
[COBY]:Yes. And that's often kind of the deciding factor of whether or not we choose to work with a client is are they like holding tightly on we know what our problem is and fix this one problem or are they open to us, using data driven investigations to illuminate the actual underlying causes of most are issues because, and again the reason why we use our favorite expression, the most important question of what has to exist first for this to be effective is because that is kind of an underlying project management philosophy of understanding that you have to again like completely make sure that all the steps you're taking on on this tool of implementation or complete this project, that your every step is solid and it's idea renovate.
[JAMES]:Your kitchen before you build the foundation of your house.
[COBY]:Exactly right. So the idea of understanding the value of the foundational work. And you're right. Just like a contractor says they won't work with a client that'like no, you have to build the kitchen before you build the basement. they're not going to work with them. Just like they're saying you need to fix our recruitment. We're like well the problem is your culture. And like oh, we don't want to fix that, we just want you to fix our recruitment. Like well then we're not the company to work with you. Right. It's an idea of you're right. It's a lack of understanding of their actual situation. And then assuming that they just insert things and eventually magic will happen. Step one is like we buy the software. Step two is we roll the software out. Step three, something magical kind of happens that we don't really fully understand but it's what the sales guy told us would happen. And then step three is success. And it's an idea of that because this is going after the problem that we see regardless of what's happening beneath the surface.
[JAMES]:Yeah. So, I mean, like a great example on the engagement piece, since we're trapping on engagement surveys right now, oftentimes, like common questions that we've seen over and over and over again are things around career growth within the organization. Do you see an opportunity, you know, to grow your career? Here is that sentiment is often, included in a, engagement survey. You know, you collect that data now you've got some really good data that says, you know what? No, people don't see, you know, an opportunity to advance their career here. So we're going to create the, we're going to just push out more information about all of the great career opportunities and what the process is to go from this position to this position and what all of your career aspirations and career trajectory pieces are. You know, we get so hung up on that one piece not realizing that, you know what, maybe the reason why they don't see having a career here is because the job's terrible and they don't like working for you. Right. You get this exact, you're getting the same outatcome, the same data is coming in, but you're not investigating why. So you. The problem, you know, going back to what the actual question is, you know, what's missing from implementation is validation of what's actually causing the problem, not just what the problem is. The problem in this case with the career growth question is not a lack of understanding of what career opportunities there are. It's that I don't see myself working here long term. Because you're a terrible employer. Because I'm paid poorly, because I'm treated poorly, because the job is stressful. Don't. And I'm not supported. And the, and my manager is, crazy and micromanagers the life out of me. Right. Like all of these elements contribute to why they don't see their, you. Why they answered the question of career growth in a negative light. But unless you actually investigate, you're going to get hung up on the wrong things.
[COBY]:Yeah, and that's just it. It's the idea of, you know, we, were hoping that by asking you this one question, you'll give us a really simple answer that will magically solve the problem. Oh, you don't see, like you say, you don't see career opportunities here. Well, then we'll inform your career opportunities. Magic happens and you're now happy. And it'it sounds so stupid as saying it like that, but that's kind of the glossing over the realities of it, it's almost like it's an assumption of, oh, if we just assume that we have to tell them about career opportunities and then that will be the magic that will actually make it ex. We don't know how or why. But that's, but that's the tipping point when all of a sudden everything's going.
[JAMES]:To be easier if we just fix that one thing.
[COBY]:Exactly. Yeah. so I do think that you're right. It's validation. It's, you know, it'sus. This is the thing too is this is the benefit of like when we go into organizations, like, we can cut right to the heart of the issue, like so quickly. It's so funny. Every client that we work with is like, I can't believe how you get your arms around our problem so fast. And we, you know, we like to.
[JAMES]:Power our, different asking questions in a different way. Right.
[COBY]:With outside perspective. Right. And this is the reality of having someone kind come in from the outside that's not burdened by the perspective of the inward facing and the history. So when they can just see past the problems that they're blocking people every day and identify kind of the core and that's the foundational piece. And then we say you fix the core, other stuff starts to kind of ripple effect. But you have to kind of know why and you have to understand you have the validate. Otherwise you're just throwingself against the wall and hoping that magic will happen.
[JAMES]:Yeah.
[COBY]:Cool.
[JAMES]:Yeah, I think that's, that's probably good for. We've got a couple other questions we want to get through. Ah, yeah. So why don't I toss the next one at you and kind of on the backs of my, I'll reiterate my earlier statement, my witty, statements earlier. how do I make sure that I'm not micromanaging? So from a manager's perspective, maybe they're a new manager or an experienced manager, wanting to know how do I avoid that?
[COBY]:Yeah. So it's funny, this question, kind of came up as a almost like reaction to an episode we did a couple of episodes ago. We talked about effective leadership and management and the three deaths and one of the micromanagement that the idea of. Okay, so these are problems. I want to make sure I'm not doing that because one of the things that I know we've talked to a lot of the like, middle level managers and that kind of thing that we've worked with is like, everybody kind of likes control Everyone likes to, you know, everyone likes to kind of know that stuff's being done because like, you know, it's. They recognize as their head on the tropping block if their teams are dropping stuff or if outcomes aren't being met or KPIs aren't being met. Like, they, they get that they want to make sure that they're able to come back to work the next day. Right. So the idea of like, you know, how do I make sure that I can have a successful team and department without insisting on controlling everything? Because I'm a little bit worried about just my longevity and I kind ofu like that. Right. And I think that's a fair question. And I always acknowledge, I always admire people that are like, thinking I might be a micromanager. How do I fix that? I appreciate the self.
[JAMES]:Just even having that much self awareness and concern is a huge step forward. I mean, I'm glad you talked about the control aspect. That is absolutely part of it. And yes, we all. I like being in control. I like having control over like, it's, it's part of my natural personality. I need to make sure that I also temper that with, providing people with the, freedom to actually do what they need to do without me getting in the way.
[COBY]:Y. Yeah. So one of the things that I always kind of start off with when someone is thinking that they may have micromanagement tendencies, is I talk about a little bit of critical reflection on why they may feel that way. An insecurity thing. Like I just said, you know, someone's worried about their own self preservation and they want to make sure that the job is done right because their head on the chopping block. That's. There's insecurities with that. Right? There's concern, there's legitimate concerns, but there's also like, you know, if, if you're truly worried about that and you're. You feeling like any m. Any misstep on you is going to end up really bad for you, there's problems with that. But is that actual or is that self imposed? It's kind of a good place to start, in your critical reflection because again, the idea of like, yes, your team's outcomes, your department's outcomes and your outputs, yes, those rest on the shoulders of the leader. That's just the way that it is. but the actions themselves may not be as something that you have to guard as closely as long as you're putting the structures in place to make sure that the outcome and the outputs are being met. Right.
[JAMES]:And there's a world of difference between micromanaging and managing performance.
[COBY]:Right.
[JAMES]:So one thing that we often end up developing with clients, is our strategies and resources and tools and training around performance management for managers. And one thing that I'm a very big proponent of is regular short check ins with your team, with your staff, then the frequency is less important than the consistency. So if you aren't able to do like 10 minutes with each staff person every week, maybe it's every other week, maybe whatever kind of frequency works for you. But there's a huge difference between regular conversations to get ahead of problems, to see where problems, might be coming up and kind of track progress towards goals versus hovering over somebody's shoulder or micromanaging, you know, really getting into the weeds of what they do. And so that's one piece that I think for somebody who is, maybe they are, they have very strong expectations placed on them from above, and want to make sure things are continuing to move forward. That is a way of kind of keeping things on track, making sure that the team that you are managing is performing optimally with regular check ins. Because then it becomes a regular part of the routine. and it allows you to. If people are regularly not hitting the targets that we're setting week over week, then it's a conversation of okay, why and how can I support you to actually achieve the things that we need to do week over week.
[COBY]:Right. And a big part of it too is to kind of realize that when you're managing performance you have to kind of set those performance expectations and ensure they've got the tools and they've got the support they need in order to meet those expectations. And a lot of it is where I always tell people you need to kind of get to, is you need to get to the idea of like trust but verify.
[JAMES]:Right, Right.
[COBY]:So the idea of put things into place so they have what they need and it's clear what they're supposed to do, then trust them to do that, but verify the results.
[JAMES]:Ongoing reocurring and that's where those regular check ins are. That's the verification process. Right. Giving them the freedom to do the job, how they need to, need to, how they decide it's best done. You're holding them accountable for the outcomes that need to be achieved and you're doing regular check ins with them to make sure that they're on track. And if they're not on track, then it's a conversation of okay, how do we get back on track? What do you need from me as your manager to help you get back on track? But if it's a recurring piece that they're constantly lagging behind, then you're into perform, disciplinary. Potentially disciplinary. Right. Managing performance, if the expectations are consistently not being met and we're doing everything we can to support people to reach our expectations, and they're still not, then we need to do something about. Okay, well here. What are the consequences of consistently not performing the way that we expect you to.
[COBY]:Yeah, exactly. So the idea of your. Like you say, ideally in organization, you're structured well enough that there systems in place around performance that allows for, to kind of make sure that managers are not micromanaging. But we also know that's not the reality in a lot of places. There's not often not the structures they need to be in place. So one of the things that we like to kind of say is if you don't have those performance systems behind you, one, get them. But two, until then, a good, almost like a good backup plan, I guess, is if you create psychological safety in your team. If your team feels like they can talk to you, that they can express any kind of concerns, your team will let you know. If you are micromanaging them, they will feel comfortable to share with you, especially if you say, hey, let me know if, if I'm kind of over your shoulder too much. If you make that part of the conversation. That's two way that they can almost help you with your performance while you're helping them with their performance. That's something that you can control as a leader on your own. You don't need a system in place if the performance management stuff is not laid out to empower you to make sure that you're not micromanaging. By creating a culture that your staff feel comfortable talking to you and bringing things to you and letting you know if they feel like you're overdoing it in one department or another, like, like around micromanaging them, that is something that will alleviate this issue. You have to just be willing to hear it.
[JAMES]:Yes. And so there's a couple things that I want to follow up on. I like. You're right. If you can create the environment that goes a huge way towards, you know, giving people the freedom to kind of speak up and push back a little bit when you might be micromanaging. But you said, something that I want to reiterate and that's you have to set that expectation with them. You have to give them permission to push back. And if you give people permission to push back and they do it, you better listen to them.
[COBY]:Right.
[JAMES]:because you will destroy your own credibility if you do. If you go halfway. There are no half measures in this. If you want to create psychological safety, you need to provide it to people. When those first baby steps in creating a psychologically safe environment are critically important. You're going to make mistakes at some point. This is inevitable. We all do it. But m owning that, recognizing that and you need to hold that space for people that if you've given them permission to to challenge you or push back on particularly this issue of micromanagement and they do it. Don't get offended, don't get defensive, adjust your strategy. But again, the other piece that I wanted to touch on is the performance management. You don't need a formalized structure to create regular check ins with your team.
[COBY]:Ye no, you're right, you're right. I think that again there's value in kind coupling those two last points because. So we did an episode a while ago where we talked about counterfeited psychological safety. It's where you like tell everyone that you an open door policy. You tell everyone that you're there listening. You tell everyone you know, let me know you know if I crossed the line or whatever like that. But then you don't react well or you actually.
[JAMES]:Or you use that or keeping tally behind the scenes and using the information that people think that they're giving you in good faith and pulling it out six months later to slap them with it. Yeah, that is a terrible, terrible practice.
[COBY]:It is. And the idea too that but like part of those short checking means you're talking about is rapport building. It's almost like re you're actually legitimately asking them how they are doing. Not necessarily always just about work directives. so I mean like there's and those two things can kind of build off each other. If you have real connection with your team, it's easier to provide them psychological safety. And if you're meeting with them on a regular basis and you're doing the check ins and you're checking in on just how it works going also how they're doing know and what do they need in order to kind of provide you their best work andn to bring their best self to work. Those kind of conversations kind of can work in tandem to build a better rapport that allows for better trust and makes it easier to get to a point of trust. But verify yeah. All right, let's move on to the last question. Okay, that's one of you. So what are some tips for recruiting in 2025?
[JAMES]:Yeah, I feel like we've had this question a few times. maybe not in 2025, but I'm going to go back to a couple, of my standard, responses to this. Quick, easy things that you can do to make your life and ultimately the applicant'life a lot easier. First, put the bloody salary on the job posting. Just do it. There's no reason to hide it. If you pay competitive wages, tell people that. Don't tell people that you pay competitive wages. Show them that your wages are competitive. if you want to leave yourself room for negotiations, give them a range. It doesn't have to be a hard and set number, but something to indicate that this job is not. We're not trying to pull a fast one on you. It's not a bait and switch. We're not trying to lure you in and then underpay you. It's clear expectations right from the very beginning. Just put the bloody salary on the job posting, please. Okay, I've gotten that one out of my system.
[COBY]:Good.
[JAMES]:One thing that I've, especially recently, one thing that I'm liking seeing more and more of is more transparency in the job postings. So we talk a lot, in different, I guess different areas or different dimensions around setting and managing expectations. and this is another way for you, right from the very first communication that you have with a potential job seeker or potential, new employee is this is an opportunity for you to set the expectations. Set the expectations around salaries. Yes, I brought it back. set the expectation or don't laugh at me. Set the expectations around, the culture that exists in your workplace. Set the expectations around what the interview process is actually going to look like. One incredibly irritating, trend that I've seen over the last. It's been a few years now, but there is no reason why you need seven rounds of interviews. Don't do that. That's dumb. It's wasting everybody's time. But having some clear expectations around, you know, the posting will be open for this pat this period of time. We expect that, interviews, you know, will be screening and hoping to do interviews within, you know, this, these two weeks. If you have already have that timeline in mind, giving that expectation to people up frontt sets you apart from virtually everybody else in the market. So clear expectations, some increased transparency in your job postings is kind of one of the tips that I would really recommend, people start moving. If you want to differentiate yourself, if you want to show that you are different than your competition, this is an easy way to do it.
[COBY]:Yeah. And one of the things that we often ask businesses when this question kind of comes up is we kind of say, when does, in your opinion, business, your employee experience start? And a lot of them kind of say, well, it's after they've started. We say, yeah, well what we say is, no, it should start in the job posting. You should be kind of, you should be building connections to your organization. You should be building almost like a relationship with people by transparencies. One of the main tools in posting that people get a feel for what you are. one of the things that we talked about with clients st in the past is when you have jobs that are kind of like niche or you have jobs that are. Have set requirements for, for positions like required education, certifications or whatever he said in your posting, talk about in your resume. Job seeker. We want to verify you meet all the requirements for the jobs. But where we want to learn about you is in your cover letter. We want to learn about why this job interests you, why you're in this field, and we want to hear your words on why this is a good fit for both of us. And that type of job posting where you kind of tell them how you're going to be reviewing it and you kind of make it clear what the resume is for, what the COVID letter is for, that is different, that stands out. That's something that the job seekers will go, wow, they're kind of giving me kind of clarity on what I should be doing. That's how the employee experience could start.
[JAMES]:Yeah. Right. So years ago when I did the a lot of the business coaching, the standard line around, because recruitment, labor is always an issue in every industry and every size of business in every region. It doesn't matter. Everybody has always and will always struggle with labor, it seems. Your resume is going to tell me what you've done. Your cover letter should tell me what you're going to do. Right. Why are you. Because honestly, we're going to get a dozen resumes from people who all meet the, the same basic minimum requirements. What I want to know to help me figure out who I want to bring in for an interview is understanding. Okay. Do you understand what we're asking for in the in m this position? Do you have any like, just the basic semblance of understanding of what my organization does? And can you articulate why you are the best person for the role. If you can do those three things in your cover letter, you're setting yourself up for success. And as a business owner or as a recruiter, if you can shift your job postings to encourage people to provide you with that information, you're going to get fewer applicants because it's more work. You. Right. People aren't just able to hit submit to 4700 different, jobs with the same resume, but you should. You'll receive better quality applications.
[COBY]:Yeah, yeah. And, and again, if you're being transparent with the pay, you use the posting as a vehicle to speak directly to the candidates and you. That's what it should be. It shouldn't just be a robotic, pleasing insert answer here. It really should be almost like an actual narrative of this is our, this is the kind of the connection we're trying to build. So we want you to meet us with that same level of effort. We're going to put that effort into reading the COVID letters and using them to evaluate you, the fit and the passion. so we want you to put that effort into submitting it to us. Yes, you're right. You get less candidates, but ideally you'll get better candidates. But one of the things that I'm seeing or I'm hearing a lot is people are not matching their resumes. Or so they look it on paper, but then when they show up, they're not kind of what you had expected or the resume didn't kind of match the answers and the questions. And some of that is, well, are you questions giving them an opportunity to really show you the real them? But also, is it if it's just trying to match a resume to a job posting?
[JAMES]:Yeah, I just want to kind of jump in on the whole, resume piece for a second because one thing that absolutely boggles my mind and drives me nuts is that one, reason why your resume, like the resume and the person may not match up perfectly is because people are learning to game the system. If you have, an automated system that screens out resumes, people are getting wise to kind, of whether it's keyword, that they need to hit or whether it is, different screening tools that you are using. If you are using, one of the reasons why I see a lot of companies failing with the recruitment aspect and applicants not necessarily matching up to their resume, that whole mentality of we've done the screening, but when they show up, they're not, they don't have the skills that we Need. It's because the companies are often relying on software to do the work. They're relying on screening tools to make their lives easier. And that's fine. There are lots of ways to find efficiencies in systems and programs to help you do that. But if you are relying on a piece of software or technology to do your screening for you, you're relying on a system that can be gamed and people are smart, smart and lazy. M and that's how innovation often happens. But if you are relying on these automated tools, whether it's AI or just a smart automation to screen out applicants, people get wise to the game. Every game has rules. And then once you understand the rules, you can manipulate them. Right. And that's kind of what we see. We see companies by the latest piece of software to change the rules of the game. It takes a very short period of time for job seekers to understand that the rules have changed and then they shift gears and they play the same game. Right. But if you try to turn this into a more authentic experience where we actually care, about what you can do for us and we want you to provide that information to us through a cover letter. It takes you're changing the rules again, but it makes it more difficult to game the system. Yes, AI can write cover letters.Yes, AI can be used to screen cover letters. It does an equally poor job of both if you haven't built the structures properly. But if you're going to. I think the big thing that I want to get across with this is that if you're going to look for efficiencies in your system, don't sacrifice quality for quantity.
[COBY]:Yeah.
[JAMES]:Don't sacrifice the human element of evaluating a human and pass that responsibility off to an automated program.[COBY]: Yeah. No, and you're right, like, I mean, because I was saying, you know, wr have a cover letter that really kind of sells the know, brings the human element to it. You're right. AI can write decent cover letters that might do that. But at the end of the day that isn't necessarily a bad thing. As long as, as long as what AI were to write. The COVID letter is reflective of how the person actually is. If you are hiring somebody who's going to be writing a lot of like marketing copy for you. Yeah. You probably don't want them using AI.
[COBY]:But if they're going to be working with children or if they're going to be doing really honestly, if they're doing anything that's not writing, then it doesn't. Then what does it matter if they. If they're conveying the message across to you?
[JAMES]:Yeah, right. I mean, what? they're using a tool to help them frame their thoughts and articulate things in a professional manner. I would rather read that than somebody's ineligible.
[COBY]:Even if you allow them to record a video or even an audio message of what would be in the COVID letter, Giving them a chance to kind of convey their human side to you and how they're a good fit for your organization and the job just allows for that more human element back into the whole recruiting process.
[JAMES]:Yeah, okay. I think we've beaten this horse to death. yeah, but, yeah, I mean, really, let's try to add a little bit more authenticity back into our recruitment process and understand that we're dealing with people. We're dealing with people who are trying to get a job and who are trying to earn a livelihood. Yes, it's a lot of work, but don't automate the success.
[COBY]:Right. No, that's fair. Okay, so I think that'about does it for this conversation. I want to say this is also our last episode of this season, so looking forward to season four, which will be coming up in a couple weeks. but, yeah, so, which is.
[JAMES]:Kind of amazing that people have been listening to us rant about stuff for three years now. So congratulations to you for actually sticking it out. yeah, not sure if I should be my congratulations or condolences.
[COBY]:But, yeah, no, we enjoy doing these and we have no intention of stopping, shy of a court order.
[JAMES]:it's all in its way.
[COBY]:So, looking forward, to our next season. Alright. It's that up. It is it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access the video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit Roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us.
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