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Diagnosing The Workplace: Not Just An HR Podcast
Diagnosing The Workplace: Not Just An HR Podcast
What Is Transformation Fatigue And How Do We Overcome It?
In this episode, we examine the type of fatigue or burnout that has been hitting companies everywhere impacting their ability to implement programs and systems to adapt to the evolving needs of the business world.
Our prescription for this episode is to understand the realities of transformation fatigue or burnout so you can save your emotional and mental health and not ignore problems or invest in performative solutions.
Past Episode Referenced:
Season 3 Episode 9: What Lessons Can We Learn From 2024?
Season 2 Episode 17: What Is Some Practical Psychology For The Workplace?
You can reach out to us to talk more about diagnostic tools and resources, just reach out to us at info@roman3.ca or through our LinkedIn page at https://www.linkedin.com/company/roman3
Don't forget to sign up for our New Quarterly Newsletter that launched this fall!
About Our Hosts!
James is an experienced business coach with a specialization in HR management and talent attraction and retention.
Coby is a skilled educator and has an extensive background in building workforce and organizational capacity.
For a little more on our ideas and concepts, check out our Knowledge Suite or our YouTube Channel, Solutions Explained by Roman 3.
Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness, not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.
[COBY]:Did we lose a patient?
[JAMES]:No, that's just my lunch.
[COBY]:Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby, he's James. Let's get started with a question. What is transformation fatigue and how do we overcome it?
[JAMES]:Yeah, this is a topic that's been actually coming up a lot in conversations with both partners and with clients. So very basically transformation fatigue is the resistance to implementing any new programs, ideas, solutions, really, whatever, because of how many transformations have been forced upon the organization already. it's not just about being tired of change and it's not just about like ineffective change management practices. It's more akin to just absolute burn. Being burnt out by being forced to go through so many different types of transformations where you just, you're utterly done with anything new because of the constant need for change. So anyways, what I want to talk about a bit more in this conversation' explore more about what it actually is, what it looks like and how we can overcome it.
[COBY]:Yeah, and I think it's good to kind of clarify that it, that this idea of transformation fatigue isn't quite the same as like change fatigue. only because when we typically understand change fatigue, its more like going through a trans. Some kind of like organizational change. Like something is happening and we're kind of like midway through it and people are just getting tired of it and they wanted to see, you know, and they're just like ah u.[JAMES]: It's just, let's just get back to some level of normalcy. Like tired of the change that they're going through. Yeah, it's a longing for normalcy. That's actually a good way to put it. But what we're talking about with transformation fatigue, fatigued tiredness, burnt out of the constant need to keep transforming, to keep making, keep making changes. Or in a lot of cases it's not necessarily about having to keep doing it. It's we keep trying to do transformative activities and they're just not working. The problems are existing so we're trying something new. And it's, and it's a lot. It also has see with a lack of success with the efforts that they're having. So they just kind of need to keep trying new things. And a big reason why this is such a problem now is because of just the fact that, you know, in 2020 everything changed and things didn't change once. Things had a huge change and then things have been evolving constantly with that. It's been a moving target since then. And a lot of it is, you know, we're in 2025 now. We're coming up on, you know, we're very close to the fifth anniversary of COVID and people are just exhausted with all they've had to go through to try to have some level of stability or to adjust to the moving target needs that is involving with the business world, with digital adoption, with the workforce. And it's just, it is this, you know, this hitting an emotional wall and being utterly burned out by all that we've had to go through before and what they have to kind of keep going through as stuff keeps evolving.
[JAMES]:Yeah, and you're right, it's not just about the transformation that was required because of COVID because many companies are well past that, after five years. Right? Yes, that was a very disruptive and required us to do a lot of changes. But there's been a lot that has been forced upon us. changing expectations, changing technologies, as you said, digital adoptions, the widespread adoption of AI, more and more, challenges around workforce, stability. All of these require significant changes to how we operate our businesses. And many businesses have been actively trying to adjust and they've been implementing new solutions. They've been going to experts, they've been buying products, they've been buying services, they've been bringing in resources to try to address these things. And they're having many times at best mixed system success with them.
[COBY]:yeah, and I mean and we work, we work with supporting businesses work. And we have a lot of partners and peers and actually even just fans of the podcast who are also in this kind of business support servicing piece. And what's really interesting is this massive trend. We talked about this a little bit in our recent episode about lessons to learned from 2024 that a lot of people in the business, support services, consulting and that kind of stuff, had a lot of contracts end or things ab or conversations abruptly end kind of in the summer to fall of 2024. Because it's almost like businesses collectively hit their emotional limit, of the problems that these different consultants, these different people work with. And we're just like, you know what we can't handle anyore, we'done thanks for your services to date. But we're moving past this issue and it's been like a conversation that know, we keep having with people in this space of like you just all of a sudden work dried up. It's harder to nail down contracts. People don't want to work with us anymore. And it's not because we haven't been showing success, we haven't been moving the needle. It's just because they just are exhausted from all they've had to go through for the few years and they just don't want to have to do it anymore.
[JAMES]:Yeah. And it, it makes sense logically when you look at what businesses are experiencing, if many times it's earnestly trying to solve a problem. And seeing small gains is good, but not seeing the transformation that they are expecting or that they want. Right. so when you are constantly trying to address a problem and you're not getting the results that you think that you should, then it creates a resistance to trying to address again. Well, why would I keep going back to that same well to keep addressing this problem when obviously it can't be fixed or there are factors beyond my control or. So whatever it is, we're just going to move past it. We're done trying to address this issue. We're going to deal with the consequences of it and we're just going to move on.
[COBY]:Yeah. And I think that is definitely the language that businesses are kind of telling themselves and kind of talking how. I'm sure that's how a lot of it is kind of being talked about internally. But this is kind of just getting to the heart of what this is, is that again, it's. They started to feel that way because they hit that emotional wall and again and they've had a lack of success or the success hasn't met their expectations. And it's because the fatigue in the burn note is creating emotional decision making. They are physically, mentally, emotionally exhausted. So now that's what's driving the bus, is their emotional decision making. Out of sheer exhaustion, out of sheer disappointment, they're saying, forget the logic of the fact, you know, success takes time. You have to spend money to make money. All the kind of like, you know, these, the realities that people know that. And yeah, but they have decided, okay, I'm tired. I don't want this to be a problem anymore. In a sense, I want us to move past this problem. So let's just move past it. And you know, because, because I'm just, I'm tired, I'm fatigued. So that is a very emotional decision to make and it throws logic out the window. But that's how burnout and stuff works, is you hit your, you know, logical limit and then, the emotion takes the wheel and takes a hard right into kind of you dropping stuff. But that's really. It is what, you know, we say what it is. It is that moving from logical to emotional exhaustion, of we're just going to move past these issues and pretend these issues aren't issues anymore or or close eyes at home for the best. And that really is what we're talking about when we say transformation fatigue.
[JAMES]:So describing it, it's very negative, right? It sounds very negative. And it sounds. So we. It's important to talk about where, how do we get to this point? How does this become an issue? Where does it come from? And in my less than humble opinion, one of the biggest factors driving transformation fatigue is performative solutions. There are. And so we've talked about performative solutions before, but essentially many times, s been, man, it's been a theme that we've seen that we've been ranting against, that we've been trying to address. because it's just, it's so pervasive. And it's the idea that when we put a new program process transformation in place that tends to be dropped in without a strategy. Oftentimes they are boxed, solutions that are sold to us as Plug and Play. buy this one tool and you will fix your problem. they're the easy solutions that we get sold on. They are the They create relatively inexpensive solutions oftentimes. Yeah, but they create the Rather than an outcome of change, it's an outcome of looking different on the surface. Rather than addressing the root cause or know using the language of the podcast, instead of actually diagnosing what the root cause or the sickness is, we just slap a little bit of paint over the symptoms.
[COBY]:Yeah.
[JAMES]:Do doctors slap paint over symptoms?
[COBY]:That doesn't seem, if they do, I'm not going to your doctor.
[JAMES]:Okay, that's fair.
[COBY]:Well, well, I mean like actually jumping on the pain thing. I think a probably a good way to look at it is the way that a lot of businesses have been sold or chosen to deal with a lot of these issues is not unlike them going to a hardware store and saying, hey, I've got mold on my wall. What do I do? And the hardware store says, well, here's a bucket of paint. Go paint over it. Problem solved. You won't see the mold anymore. And then so they go, and then they paint the wall. And then a few, you know, weeks later the mold comes through and they're like, well, I guess I'll have To buy. Go buy another thing of paint and ‘I’ll.
[JAMES]:Buy a different color paint this time.
[COBY]:Exactly.
[JAMES]:Right.
[COBY]:yeah. And then they eventually they talk to a contractor like well no, you need to tear the wall out and actually fix the problem. Like, you know what? I'm just gonna pretend the problem not there anymore. I've already invested all this time and money into the paint.
[JAMES]:I'll paint the wall black so that even when it comes through it's not going to show up.
[COBY]:Yeah. I don't want this to be a problem anymore, so let's just move on.
[JAMES]:Yeah.
[COBY]:Is pretty much kind of a.
[JAMES]:That's not a bad analogy really. You saved the doctor Paint analogy for the contractor paint analogy. but I do like that because it is pretty descriptive of how I've seen performative solutions in play. where they do on the surface make the wall look different. Right. Whether we are talking about workforce development, whether we're talking about recruitment strategies or engagement strategies or what ever we are trying to address, we are doing something that looks different. So the performative aspect is there, but it's, it hasn't been developed as part of a strategy to address the actual root cause of what is driving high turnover, poor retention, know, lack of engagement, whatever.
[COBY]:Yeah. But sometimes again like it's. I do think that there are people and products out there selling, you know, magic beans to magical solutions to these complex problems. And they're, you know, it's. They're selling the bucket of paint to fix, you know, to fix the wall.
[JAMES]:As long as people are willing to buy paint, they'll sell it.
[COBY]:And that's just it. But I also think the businesses are kind of out there looking for paint.
[JAMES]:Ye.
[COBY]:I mean like they, because again, they know whoh. That looks like it's gonna be an expensive issue. What's a cheaper alternative? I mean, I won't lie, I'm that homeowner. Totally. Because that's exactly the kind of o. That looks expensive. What's it? Cheapest alternative I can find to fix that problem is really kind of where my head's at. but so again I get the logical fallacy of it. But I do think we kind of also.
[JAMES]:Because again, well, it's important to state that we're all susceptible to this line of reasoning. Right. We are not, you and I are not unique, delicate flowers, that are vastly. Yeah. We make the same stupid decisions that everyone else does.
[COBY]:That's true. But I do think that reframing the situation and looking at it from that kind of perspective of yeah, you know, we've been looking for paint level fixes rather than hiring a contractor to come in and actually tear the wall out and replace stuff. Because that sounds like very disruptive, a lot of work and very expensive. So some of it is we kind of go in with the wrong mentality looking for those performative, quick win sor easy answers. And the problem is that those are rarely effective in the short term and honestly they're completely unsustainable in the long term.
[JAMES]:Well and the problem is that after years of painting over the mold. When it is time to actually address the problem, it's flippin expensive.
[COBY]:Yeah.
[JAMES]:It can be expensive in time, expensive in resources, expensive in effort. like it is. And unfortunately that's where many businesses are currently is that they've been painting over the mold for the last five years and haven't been getting the results that they. The problem keeps coming back and they're at a point where you know what? I don't know if I can or want to deal with how big a problem this actually is.
[COBY]:And I think again the fact is it just like with you know, mold going on behind the wall, the problem festers.
[JAMES]:Yeah.
[COBY]:And gets larger. And so the solution required, you know, which might have been smaller, you know, a few years ago is going to. Is this going to be bigger now? Because the problem spreads behind the scenes. Right.
[JAMES]:Yeah.
[COBY]:So. So again it is something that if you're hearing this now and you're like okay, you know, real talk, we've been painting over the mold at our company, then you know, you might want to take a hard look at acting beyond or looking at the non performative solutions to kind address the problem now. Because the longer you keep kicking that can down the road, the bigger and more expensive and more toxic the problem is going to get.
[JAMES]:And the only. So yes, the only way to avoid performative solutions in my mind is to actually investigate the root cause. Because what is a performative solution for one company could actually be the right solution to address the root cause of the problem for another company. And this is where in conversations with clients we've seen, well, I'm having a similar type of problem as my friend who owns a different type of business and he did this activity and got some results from it. So I'm going to do the exact same thing that he did. Why is it not working for me? Well, because what the symptoms might look the same but the sickness is different.
[COBY]:Yeah, exactly. And that's why? When we do our engagements with, with new clients, we have to kind of convince them this is an important first step. But diagnostic tools going in and assessing the situation to find those root causes and find your unique to almost like show you how unique your situation is is often one of the most important things. And that's the difference between a performative solution and a strategic solution is if you're assuming that this one solution will work for everybody, it's performative. If someone'going in to look deeply into your specific, unique, complex situation and then provide you with customized answers based on that data, that's how you know you've moved beyond performative.
[JAMES]:Because there needs to be strategy involved. Right. We need to be. It's funny how often we talk about the lack of strategy from a organizational or operational perspective because in any other part of our business it doesn't fly. Right. You have to know like when, I.
[COBY]:Mean we have procurement strategies and we have market strategies and we have all this other kind of stuff.
[JAMES]:But it's we need strategies for how do we develop our workforce, how do we create a productive environment that people actually don't despise working in?
[COBY]:Yeah. Like our employee attraction and retention and performance and experience has to have the same depth of evidence based strategy that our procurement does and that our marketing does and kind of end even our growth. It all the level of rigor in one area is reflective of the area of the rigor it needed in other areas.
[JAMES]:Yeah. Although that is assuming that everybody is taking a strategic approach to marketing and market acquisition. I think there's a lack of strategy across the board.
[COBY]:Well, here's the thing. If you're not doing strategy anywhere, then your employee situations may not be the biggest problem you have to deal with Anyway. So I think we talked about what transiration fatigue really is and where it comes from. Let's, let's just clarify a little bit about what does it look like.
[JAMES]:Okay.
[COBY]:We definitely talked kind of around it, but I really do think the heart of what it looks like is a decision that you don't want this to be a problem anymore. It really does come from. We've been fighting this problem for a long time. We've been putting time and money into it. I'm tired of this being a problem, so I don't want it to be a problem anymore.
[JAMES]:I'd rather deal with the consequences of it than deal with and then address the issue.
[COBY]:Yeah, it's, it's when I think you move, you've moved to A point where you're too exhausted with the. With having a logical approach to everything that you're just. Now you're acting emotional, the emotional reaction, the emotional decision making has taken over and you're into denial and avoidance. And I think that again, I think that for you, listening, you know, if you're in a situation where you're wondering if that's you, it's going to take some hard self reflection to know if you're doing that. But I'm sure if you're listening to this and you're not responsible, you're seeing it in others, you're seeing it in those either in your clients who are doing this or in your managers or wherever. But when you move into that emotional reaction takeover, that. That is kind of the, I think what is kind of the precipice of where this transformation fatigue hits.
[JAMES]:Yeah, I like the connection, to burnout. that. I like that piece because if we look at how burnout takes place personally, like when we get burnt out or when an employee gets burnt out, we hit a point where we just say, I don't care anymore. I don't want to deal with this crap. Whether that's top down from my manager, supervisor, whatever. We hit this point where we recognize that long term this could have a negative impact on us. Where when we get to a point where we say, I don't care, my manager has been a piece of garbage, to deal with and I'm just going to say, forget it, I don't care anymore. That could have a big impact on my employment. Very logical. But the emotional piece is I just cannot care anymore. And taking that from an individual to an organization is. There's a lot of similarities there. And it's just as dangerous, it's dangerous for an organization to reach a point of I don't care.
[COBY]:Yeah, absolutely. And may be a better way to talk about this other than just fatigue is really transformation burnout. Right. Because that is probably the envision that people want to have. Transformation fatigue is a legit thing. But I think if we understand it more as transformation burnout, it might actually help us kind of say, okay, this is a different problem than just being tired of a change. This is absolute burnout with everything that we have to do with. And I'm solely now trying to just kind of hold together my short term that I'm completely sacrificing in my long term. Right. Y And in our last episode we talked a little bit about, prolonged, survival mode. And I do think that, you know'a there's a bit of work of potentially if businesses are hitting this kind of transformation fatigue and it's kind of burnout, they may be entering a bit of a survival mode where they're completely kind of, you know, separating their long term success from their thought process. And it's just about trying to, you know, deal with what I can deal with right now, what's right in front of me. Only thinking, you know, minute by minute ahead, rather even day by day. And it's something that, you know, we're, you know, it's a problem because this is going to be. These problems are not going to fix themselves. These problems are not going to go away by ignoring them. These problems are going to grow and fester behind the wall until it gets to a point that it shuts you down. Like, you know, like t you're, until you're building is condemned is gonna be kind of the, that's the end game of ignoring. And you know, so it's an idea of, you know, we just understanding what it is and where it comes from and what it looks like. That awareness is critical because if this is something that may be happening to you and your company, this is something that the longer you wait, the bigger the problem is going to be. And hopefully when you actually get the kind of energy to again re engage with back into it. Because maybe your fatigue and your burnout is going to be short lived but hopefully you haven't waited so long that the damage is already done and it's irreversible.
[JAMES]:Yeah. And it's important to recognize that the burnout is real, the fatigue is real, the exhaustion is real. And when I know when I've like there have been times throughout my career where I have hit that wall where I have burned myself out and it's just I can't care anymore. And what's gotten me through that is honestly needing to take a little bit of time for myself, taking a step back from volunteering or doing everything all the time to limiting myself. And that's a legitimate self care option. The same can be done as a leader or executive. If you've hit that transformation fatigue burnout stage, you might legitimately need some time to catch your breath essentially. But you're right. When you come back at it, you need to come at it with a strategy of what am I trying to accomplish? How is this going to fit into the larger operational goals and what is actually driving the problem. Right. If your problem isn't a retention problem, your problem isn't a. That you have high turnover. Your problem is what's causing people to leave. Right. Your problem isn't that you can't attract people. The problem is that there's something deeper than just the symptom that you are experiencing. So take the time that you need, but come back with a strategy of how do you actually want to accomplish these things and address the root cause of it.
[COBY]:No, you're right. Because I mean, getting specifically into attraction and retention. If you've been trying to deal with your, attraction problems by investing in recruitment software, and then you're tired and it hasn't fixed it and you've been dumping more into it and you're tired of you had to do the Dell digital adoption, everything else like that too, and it still isn't working, then it's about you. Right. Take a step back, take a breather and maybe like, okay, the problem may honestly, it's more likely an employee experience problem.
[JAMES]:Yah.
[COBY]:And you know, you again, that solution of the recruitment software was the paint on the wall.
[JAMES]:And it's not that these solutions aren't good. They're just. They're not designed to cause. To treat the sickness.
[COBY]:Well, it's just like that. Recruitment software is just like paint. Paint is great when used for its specific purpose. But paint doesn't magically fix mold. Just like recruitment software. It doesn't magically fix the employee experience. Right, Right. So it'the idea of wrong tool for the job.
[JAMES]:Right.
[COBY]:So these tools can be great and there's a lot of great products out there. But if you're trying to force an inexpensive option to fix a complex problem, then you're again, it is just more paint over mold.
[JAMES]:Yeah.
[COBY]:All right, So I think let's. So I think we've made enough doom and gloom. let's actually talk about the real question. M. I'm sure the real reason why most people have tuned in the episode how do we overcome it? And I think that your point about tying it to burnout is probably a great kind of roadmap for this issue. Because like we said, if you think about the company is kind of burned out the same way an employee is, then kind of the strategies that we can use to kind of address a burnout can often be some of the strategies that we use to kind of address this specific transformation fatigue and transformation burnout. Right. And I think that step one is really just kind of showing a little bit of empathy for the situation that people are in. Right. Because the thing is that you kind of have to acknowledge all that the company has gone through, all the leaders in the manage have had to go through. Right. Because fatigue doesn't come from doing nothing. Right. It comes from people have been trying to solve these issues. They haven't been ignoring them M they haven't putting the effort in. They've been, they've been sweating the details and they've been trying to solve these issues often with earnest attentions. Right.
[JAMES]:It's not a blame laying activity, it's a acknowledgement of time and effort and resources that people have put into these.
[COBY]:Ye and again and I'm sure there have been improvements in some places. So acknowledging how well things have been handled, how, how earnest the efforts have been in and not you know, again not just saying, well you've been stupid every step of the way. You know, actually like you know, saying, you know, again, efforts have been made, time has been spent, money's been spent and you know, and so the desire for, for improvements have always been there. And it's just, you know, maybe kind of just again having a little bit of empathy for those that have put the effort into it. Just kind of also again having some empathy and some compassion even for yourself and maybe even looking at, you know, maybe I am pushing myself too hard. Maybe I do need it to take a step back or maybe I do need to pass this on to someone else or whatever. But just having a little bit of compassion and empathy for the situation and for all the people who have ve gone through is probably step one.
[JAMES]:Well, yes, I agree with you and I think if we look at what often is a driving force of burnout is not just workload but a lack of recognition or appreciation of effort along with workload. Right. One thing, it's not a magic pill that will fix employee burnout either. But on this step to addressing it is, as you said, acknowledging what people have done. Acknowledging that people have been working very hard to address these issues and celebrating even if the transformation hasn't been perfect, celebrating people's efforts is different than celebrating people's accomplishments. Right. People been. If you as the business owner have been the one driving this, then you need to give yourself some self love, self care and acknowledge that the constant effort is a good thing. Just because something didn't work perfectly doesn't mean failing at something does not make you a failure. So acknowledging that you can do your best and you can fail, but that doesn't mean that the whole thing is a failure, that your business is A failure that your whatever. And extend that same level of grace to your employees who have been journeying with you through these frustrations.
[COBY]:Yeah, no, I think it's an excellent point about failing and failure because that's just it. Again, cutting yourself a little bit of slack and reframing it a bit. And again, if you're a consultant or someone kind of in the business support services field, you know, then part of it is, you know, acknowledging with and your clients or have hit this transformation fatigue. Part of it is going to be just acknowledging with them the fact that you having some empathy further situation, even though it's frustrating, you know, kind of watch them go through this. It's again, just acknowledging that again fatigue doesn't come from doing nothing and that, you know, that, you know, just kind of encourage, encouraging them in how well they may have handled this whole. Everything is chaos, you know, the world changed and we're all making it up as we go along because there's no more, there's no tried and true anymore. And how they've handled that to date is something that might just give them a little bit of breathing room too because you know, it's all this stuff is keeping business owners and managers up at night and just acknowledging and normalizing. That can be very helpful when trying to kind of take a deep breath and reframe the situation. We can look at a more strategic approach and kind of keep powering through the need for these transformations despite the burnout.
[JAMES]:Yeah. And for coaches or consultants working in this space, seeing their clients experiencing this problem, it's not that your solutions are necessarily performative. It's not that you're not necessarily addressing the issues. My recommendation would be to make sure that the client understands what's driving these issues. Because you may have a phenomenal program, you may have a phenomenal, area of expertise and be able to help them develop. I don't know what you're doing. Maybe you're doing internal communications and you can really develop these amazing processes and tools and resources and channels and collateral and content. But if that's not where the problem originates from, your client may not be getting that, the results that you know, are so effective.
[COBY]:Right. And even a matter of making sure that they understand the problem to know that they. Because they have probably asked for a quick fix.
[JAMES]:Likely.
[COBY]:And one of the problems we run into this problem all the time, we're always struggling with. How do we deal with it is trying to acknowledge what the client wants while trying to encourage them to accept what they need.
[JAMES]:Because let's be real things. When a client comes to you and tells you what they need, they don't have a sweet clue what they need. Nine times out of ten they don't. They know what they want and know they might know what their pain point is. More likely they know what symptoms they're experiencing. But yeah, it is a challenge to, convince a client that what they want may not actually be what's going to fix the problem for them. And we run into that frequently.
[COBY]:We do, absolutely.
[JAMES]:I don't have a good answer for you. so don't at me.
[COBY]:Well, I think this does bring us to kind of the next step which is really trying to encourage self awareness. Right. And we say self awareness. We often you talk about that in terms of having a bit of an objective view of the situation or of the person. Right. So like when we talk about self awareness in terms of like an individual burnout, sometimes it's about finding strengths that they can lean on and then identifying the weaknesses that are holding them back. That works in the way of organizational, transformation and burnout and fatigue and everything too. Because if you go in and you can assess the situation, get a sit rep for what is going on in their organization, you can identify the strengths that the company can lean on y through the transformation while also identifying the real weaknesses that are what's holding them back. Because the thing is, is that whether you're talking about individual employee burnout or this transformation burnout, fatigue creates a tainted view of our current situation. So for something to be reframed and objectively shown to them what things are really like, can help reinforce the things that they need to do and identify the things that are working well so they know that you're not blaming them or want to throw the baby out with the bathwater or whatever it is, but that objective reality can help them understand the situation better themselves better. And also you get them better, right? You understand their situation. You're not telling them, well, this is what works for everybody else. So it'work for you. You're bringing them the kind of the self awareness that they can stand on and go, okay, now that we actually truly understand, then we can move forward. Kind of like going back to the paint and the mold. If you bring in a inspector to inspect the situation and tell you, okay, here's the walls that are rotted, here's the walls that are fine, here's the, you know, give you a, Firm view and awareness of your actual current.
[JAMES]:Situation is how far the problem extends. Right. How much needs to be removed, how much can be salvaged. Let's not tear down the entire building because you've got some mold on your walls.
[COBY]:Right. But just give them the awareness, the self awareness that they can stand on and just feel that they've got some secure footing underneath them so they can actually take the proper steps forward.
[JAMES]:Yeah, right. I think what I want to add to that, I've kind of mentioned it before, but I really want to harp on this topic. I guess transformation burnout is good term for it. is experienced by not just the business owner, leader, manager. Everybody is experiencing it. Right. You've been trying a lot of different things and your teams are likely very tired of what's going to be the next new change that we're going to have to deal with. Extending them, celebrating what they've done, acknowledging the efforts that they've gone through, acknowledging the frustrations that come with that. That may require you owning up to some of your own frustrations. It does require an element of psychological safety to show that it's a bit of vulnerability in acknowledging that, you know what, not everything's worked. I acknowledge that not everything that we've tried has been a, huge success. But if we're going to address this, we're going to do it together. I want to acknowledge the efforts that you, my team, have been putting into all of this. we're committed to fixing this solution, finding a solution together. Whatever language you end up using, it's really important to acknowledge the other people who are affected by the transformation burnout as well.
[COBY]:Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I do think that again, that's all part of safety. Definitely needs to be there for that self awareness and that acknowledgement. Your hummers aren’t right. So I think the third step that I would suggest is kind of moving on would be the process of deconstruction. This is something that we use as a vital element in all of our planning. But deconstruction, in just case it's a term you haven't heard of, it's just a name for breaking processes down into small, everyday bite sized steps to make them less overwhelming. So when I used to teach about all this stuff, the story I love to tell is the idea of impossible things can be achieved through deconstruction. So there is a dude, I can't remember his name right now. we'll just call him the dude, the dude who Once ate an airplane and he. So it was like a Cessna 150S so a small single prop airplane. But over the course of like three years actually I think the guy's name was Michael Lolito I think was his name. And he took this Cena 150 and he broke it down into like handful size bits, like shredded the props into like small chunks and nuts and bolts. And over the course of multiple years he ate handfuls of this airplane and eventually he ate an entire airplane. Why is something that's a little bit more subjective I it real record so. But to me that's beside the point. The fact is something as absolutely utterly impossible as eating an airplane is absolutely achievable. If you use deconstruction and you break processes down into small everyday steps and you consistently execute them.
[JAMES]:Yeah.
[COBY]:And that is going to be the approach that will make the transformations again less overwhelming, less concerning. And again you have to have some, some commitment to the long term. Often these processes will take time. Again takes time to e. An airplane takes time to solve these issues. But if you understand that, you know, you don't have to take giant bites out of the things you know every hour, if you do small little changes every single day, you'd be amazed how effective transformation can be with the proper strategy that leverages and utilizes effective deconstruction.
[JAMES]:Yeah. And you may not be deconstructing something as concrete as an airplane, so you may not have the tangible bolts to take apart. So how do you get down to the basics? And we'll give you like honestly most the best question that we can, the best thing that we can provide to you is to just continually ask yourself the question of what needs to exist first for this to be successful. that question, it's very simple. But if you investigate that, I don't care what the type of transformation is that you are implementing, you need to understand what needs to exist first for this recruitment software to be successful. We need to understand and just keep going back. Once you ask that question once. Okay. You're at a new stage. Cool. What needs to exist first for this now to be successful? And just keep working your way back until you break it down into byte size elements.
[COBY]:And that's just it.
[JAMES]:That you don't have to eat a plane.
[COBY]:No, you don't.
[JAMES]:I wouldn't recommend it actually.
[COBY]:Yeah, actually no. I think our lawyers and our insurance company would say please don't tell people to eat airplanes. So I was going toa say go for it. I'm going to say no. Disclaimer.
[JAMES]:Don't. Don't eat airplanes.
[COBY]:Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[JAMES]:There's probably cheaper meals too. There's probably more expensive meals. But any.
[COBY]:But the thing is about. You're right. That question is a vital key to a successful deconstruction. What needs to exist first before this will be effective should be your guiding principle, your guiding question to any kind of strategy.
[JAMES]:Just make it your mantra. Just honestly, we use it all the time. It is such a simple and powerful tool to start to get at the root cause of what's happening, just what needs to exist for this to be successful.
[COBY]:Absolutely. Which brings me, I think, to step four, which is the last step, which is about being solution focused. This is about kind of realizing that you're going to need to have support to do this. You're going to need to have strategy, you're going to need to have time. But you need to be committed to solutions and focusing on, you know, the, on the path forward. And this may require you building a bit of a support system within your organization or maybe you need to bring in extra people from the outside to help facilitate this through. But, you know, or you may need to identify what are going to be some short, quick wins to build momentum and show people that this transformation is going to be worth it. These are all the things that you have to be focused on is about looking at this as we're going to be, stop being so focused on the problem and we're going to start being focused on the solutions. And that is a mindset shift that is just going to be what kind of sustains this going forward. Keep focusing on the solution, keep focusing on the, on the outcome and stop sweating the messy complexity that is change. And just be so focused on hitting that solution and finding solutions to problems as they arise rather than dwelling on the problems themselves. And I really think that again, that's so much easier said than done, but that really is kind of the last step to work through this.
[JAMES]:Change is not just about the process. Make sure that you're preparing your people for the messy transition of change as well, because they're the ones who are going to be experiencing it. it's important to get the paperwork, and the documentation and all of those pieces in place. You have to. But you also need to make sure that you are bringing your people along with you. So generate, buy in early, communicate often and make sure that people understand the why behind the what.
[COBY]:No, that's really good.
[JAMES]:That's Why I said it just to.
[COBY]:Jump into a really quick summary. so our question was what is transformation fatigue and how do we overcome it? And the reality is we really have to look at what it is. And it really is about organizations hitting the emotional wall of the constant change that's been needed for likely the past five years and maybe the frustration with them not having the success that they wanted to. So this comes from often putting in solutions that look like they're going to work but actually don't actually more often cover up the problem than actually getting into the root cause. and our comparison or comparative analogy was like painting over mold to kind of mask the symptoms rather than actually getting to the heart of the issue. And what it looks like is people not wanting to have these kinds of problems that require the transformation anymore, letting the kind of their logical brains take a vacation and they're running off pure emotion of just exhaustion and frustration. And the way that we overcome this is we really need to kind of see this a bit like the idea of a comp, comparing it to burnout, that this is a transformation burnout. So we have to address in the same way we would address kind of employee burnout or personal burnout. And that starts with having some empathy, kind of acknowledging what we've gone through because fatigue does not come from doing nothing. We need to have some self awareness and realize that we need to find the strengths that we can lean on and then find and identify the weaknesses that are holding us back. This comes from trying to have objective, you know, views and tools that will give us a clear picture of the foundation that we have, of the sure footing that we need to take their first steps forward. and then once we can know that we need to look at deconstruction about breaking down these problems into small everyday steps to make them less overwhelming and we to have a solution focused mentality that we're focused on the commitment to go forward and we're looking to you find solutions, not just keep identifying more problems. Alright. So that about does it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access the video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit Roman3ca podcast. Thanks for joining us.
[ANNOUNCER]:For more information on topics like these, don't forget to Visit us at Roman3ca. Side effects of this podcast may include improved retention, high productivity, increased market share, chair employees breaking out in spontaneous dance, dry mouth, a version of the sound of James voice, desire to find a better podcast…
